Ask Collin Moshman and Katie Dozier About Sit ‘n Goes!

Thanks for your replies! I'm still a bit fuzzy on how ICM and pot odds are related. Does ICM take into account the pot odds you are being offered or not? If it doesn't are pot odds something you should think about as well as ICM while you are playing or does ICM replace the need to think about pot odds because it is a better way of thinking in certain situations - sit and go's, near the bubble etc.

Thanks Alex!

Amanda, ICM as a model is independent of pot odds. For software that uses ICM to give you ranges, pot odds are already factored in. For example, facing a 5bb shove in the big blind, a range calculator would do an EV calculation which reflects that it costs you 4bb to call but the pot is 7.5bb (or whatever the pot size is). So you don't need to think separately about pot odds.

Collin, thanks so much for explaining this. So when I'm looking at my results in ICMizer it is taking in to account pot odds as well as ICM considerations when it recommends to shove or fold. Great! I was a little fuzzy on this before.

Katie Dozier said:

The strategy is just to keep getting it in with the correct odds , and it is true that shove/fold is a very important component of tournament poker, especially when it comes to SNGs.

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I noticed your SNG thread ...

About 10 years ago I played a lot of SNG's especially on Titan where they had JackPot SNG's where if you won 6 games in a row, the Ft. Knox game ($50 buy-in) could win you a quarter million. Being a low stakes player, I won the "Dirty Dozen" jackpot several times (worth $2,000) in this $2 buy-in game. Had you ever played there? These games no long exist and have been replaced with "lottery style" spins (Blast on 888) and all the other "Spin" games. Are you aware of any sites and games that have great value?

Regarding software, I have SNG Wizard and Poker Tracker 4. I only use software that is allowed while playing and use other software such a Poker Stove and the Wizard afterwards. Are you familiar with this software and what is your opinion regarding them at a table of experienced players in big game SNG's?

Polytarp said:

I noticed your SNG thread ...

About 10 years ago I played a lot of SNG's especially on Titan where they had JackPot SNG's where if you won 6 games in a row, the Ft. Knox game ($50 buy-in) could win you a quarter million. Being a low stakes player, I won the "Dirty Dozen" jackpot several times (worth $2,000) in this $2 buy-in game. Had you ever played there? These games no long exist and have been replaced with "lottery style" spins (Blast on 888) and all the other "Spin" games. Are you aware of any sites and games that have great value?

Regarding software, I have SNG Wizard and Poker Tracker 4. I only use software that is allowed while playing and use other software such a Poker Stove and the Wizard afterwards. Are you familiar with this software and what is your opinion regarding them at a table of experienced players in big game SNG's?

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Hi Polytarp, that dirty dozen jackpot sounds like amazing value! Unfortunately I didn’t hear about it or else I would’ve checked it out. Wish I had something of similar value to recommend as those sound awesome. Way to go on finding such a cool format and taking advantage of if while it was around!

Yes, I’m familiar with those types of software and I also play with PT4. PokerStove and SNGWiz are really excellent tools for studying, but just keep in mind that if you’re at a big SNG full of experienced players then it is going to be tough to find a nice edge because they all will (for the most part at least haha) be studying with software and playing extremely well.

In those situations, in addition to trying to find softer games and/or times to play and practicing table selection, I like to make sure I’m studying my opponent’s hands directly. That way you’re at least able to use the fact that you have a lot of hands with strong opponents (something we want to avoid as much as possible as it means we’re frequently playing against tough competition). In reviewing my opponents hands I’ve both managed to identify leaks of theirs (like say having close to a 100% c-bet even versus regs) as well as plays I liked and chose to then incorporate more into my own play. Best of luck at the tables!

Realistic Goals

I'm in the process of setting my 2020 goals and am trying to settle on my poker goals. I'm planning to get back into SNGs (on ignition Poker) and I've been looking over my old SNG books and practicing on PokerGenius while I save a bankroll. In Phil Shaw's book he says that "a studious recreational player with a full-time job should be able to progress from the $5 to the $100 games in a year." He bases this on playing a total of 1378 games at 15% ROI.

Is that realistic in the current SNG environment? Was it even realistic then? If it's not realistic, what sort of progression would make a reasonable goal for a year's play?

Thanks in advance,
Brad

I like this question Maglia. Here you go with some answers!

1. No, what Phil Shaw describes is very unrealistic in today's SNG environment.

2. Yes, I just checked and his book came out in 2008 which was earlier than I realized. So at the time he wrote that, progressing from $5s to $100s in one year with a lot of study and 1400 games at 15% ROI would have actually been realistic

3. A year's goal, that's a good question! It depends a lot on where you're starting from in terms of past experience, as well as the hours/week you can devote to study and play. On US sites, getting up from micro SNG to beating the $10 level might be a decent one-year goal depending on your answers.

Thanks

Thanks for your answer Collin. I'm glad you and Katie have this forum and I'm glad I asked. It probably saved me a lot of frustration.

I'm curious about what's changed in the last ten years or so that makes it so much more difficult. Is it just that governments banned online poker so there are fewer recreational players?

I used to play SNGs for fun and was a break-even player (I never had to top up my account) at $2.20 level on pokerstars, but if I moved up to $5.50 I was a small loser. I learned to play from reading Ed Miller's Getting Started in Hold Em and Lee Jones's Winning Low Limit Hold Em. Those two books formed the core of my SNG strategy and I also bought your book, Phil Shaw's book, and Lee Nelson's Let's Play Poker. I stopped playing when the government in my country brought in laws that made it hard for online poker operators to provide services here and all of the big sites blocked me (us).

For the last two months I've been playing once a week in a STT (set start time so not a SNG) at my local pub. The format is that there is one $5 buy in table and three $10 buy in tables. Each table is winner takes all. The first two on each table go to the final table where there is no extra buy in and the prizes are provideded by the venue. First gets $100, second gets a voucher for six drinks (approx. $40), and third gets a $20 venue voucher. I usually finish in the top three on my table (most frequently in third), and I've been to the final table a handful of times. I've finished first once, second once, and third once.

I work full time and have a wife and child who both have health issues so I am home looking after them, the house and the dogs most of the time. I recently discovered that Ignition Poker allows players from my country to play and I thought I'd get back into SNGs. It will allow me to be home but still play poker. I commute 2.5 to 3 hours a day and I can use that time to study, but I don't have mobile internet so I would use books and printed hand histories.

On weekdays I have one or two hours in the evening I could use, and plenty of time on the weekends.

That's very nice you take care of your family, and it sounds like you're doing great in the pub games -- those are a lot of fun!

Your question about why things have changed so much is a good one. For sure, governments haven't had a positive impact on the games. One giant international player pool would be the best.

Another reason is just that opportunities tend not to last. For a while, a reasonably intelligent person willing to put in the work could make a lot of money working from home playing poker. This opportunity attracted more and more people until it no longer existed in the same form -- it's still possible to make money from home playing poker, but hourly rates are lower than they once were and it requires more work and study than it used to.

By the way, besides Ignition you can also play on WPN from the US. This is the network that has sites like ACR which you can check out here.

Thanks Collin.
I'm in Australia, so I don't think ACR and WPN will let me play.
I'm going to set my goal for the year as playing profitably at $1 and moving up to being profitable at $5 by the end of the year. If I start with a $40 bankroll I need to make $160 profit to have 40X buy in for the $5 level. If I play 20 games a week I will play 1000 games for the year and will need a ROI of 14.5%. If I can play more than that I will.
From what you've told me, this will be a challenging goal, but I think it's within the realms of possibility.
If it works out I'll shoot for $10 level in 2021.

magliabechi said:

Thanks Collin.
I'm in Australia, so I don't think ACR and WPN will let me play.
I'm going to set my goal for the year as playing profitably at $1 and moving up to being profitable at $5 by the end of the year. If I start with a $40 bankroll I need to make $160 profit to have 40X buy in for the $5 level. If I play 20 games a week I will play 1000 games for the year and will need a ROI of 14.5%. If I can play more than that I will.
From what you've told me, this will be a challenging goal, but I think it's within the realms of possibility.
If it works out I'll shoot for $10 level in 2021.

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That sounds like a fun challenge! Best of luck and please let us know how it goes!

Hi Collin & Katie, Barry Carter here from that other site.


I have 2 questions:

1) As SNGs in general have arguably become less popular especially since the advent of Spin & Go, do you think people understand ICM less now than say 10 years ago? Back when I first play satellites in the Full Tilt days most decent regs understand how tight you had to call but people have been really surprised in 2019 since Dara and I did the satellite book

2) Any more books on the horizon for either of you? I still have my tattered copy of Sit N Go Strategy and it was pretty transformative for me back then

daveshoelace said:

Hi Collin & Katie, Barry Carter here from that other site.


I have 2 questions:

1) As SNGs in general have arguably become less popular especially since the advent of Spin & Go, do you think people understand ICM less now than say 10 years ago? Back when I first play satellites in the Full Tilt days most decent regs understand how tight you had to call but people have been really surprised in 2019 since Dara and I did the satellite book

2) Any more books on the horizon for either of you? I still have my tattered copy of Sit N Go Strategy and it was pretty transformative for me back then

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Thanks for popping in, Barry! And thank you for your interesting questions! [emoji4]

1) I think that’s a very interesting point and I agree that the general understanding of ICM has decreased over the last decade in poker. Perhaps Spin & Gos becoming a significant format has changed things since there is no ICM for these games—so even the top regs in that format probably aren’t studying ICM.

I think tournament players in general tend to call a bit wider than they used to a decade ago, which has the potential to lead to even bigger ICM mistakes than we were seeing back then. Perhaps this makes for a great time to playing satellites, particularly with the excellent wisdom to be found in you and Dara’s book! [emoji4]

2) Collin and I are just finishing up a complete CardsChat course on becoming a winning poker player that we’re very excited about! The course is comprised of an ebook paired with custom videos with one topic everyday spanning a month. Will update more once we have a date for release, and thanks for asking, Barry!

What poker software is best for parsing SNG

Tell me which poker software is better for parsing ICM models; I’m thinking about buying an HRC poker calculator or cARDRUNNERS EV & Tell me what their differences are of particular interest to the second. Should they be driven and how to use Cardruners EV & for analysis?Tell me which poker software is better for parsing ICM models; I’m thinking about buying an HRC poker calculator or cARDRUNNERS EV & Tell me what their differences are of particular interest to the second. Should they be driven and how to use Cardruners EV & for analysis?

Dzmitry Tokarau said:

Tell me which poker software is better for parsing ICM models; I’m thinking about buying an HRC poker calculator or cARDRUNNERS EV & Tell me what their differences are of particular interest to the second. Should they be driven and how to use Cardruners EV & for analysis?Tell me which poker software is better for parsing ICM models; I’m thinking about buying an HRC poker calculator or cARDRUNNERS EV & Tell me what their differences are of particular interest to the second. Should they be driven and how to use Cardruners EV & for analysis?

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HRC is better for ICM calculations. CREV has a steep learning curve but is great for postflop analysis. So I recommend getting HRC (or ICMizer is a great tool as well) for ICM analysis, and CREV if you’d like for postflop. There are some great YouTube videos on both. Hope that helps and good luck!

Hello Collin and Katie!

Want to ask about this situation: I sit on MP or CO, BU or Blinds and have A6o-A9o. UTG player with stack like me raise 2-3 BB, all fold, I just call.
On flop I see A with two weak cards (2-9), but I have only pair of A. Preflop raiser contbet pot size.
What I must do? And what to do on turn and river, if I call on flop and opp continue betting?

1 sunchin, unless you're in the big blind facing a small raise, it's usually better to fold A6o-A9o pre-flop facing a UTG raise. A big part of the reason why is because of the excellent example you give -- you're often not too happy to be in the pot even when you hit your ace!

If you do take a flop though, it would usually be better to call a bet with your top pair hand and see what happens on the late streets. Unless your opponent is passive or the board gets worse, you'll often be best to call down. But again, my bigger suggestion is to start folding a lot more pre-flop in these spots!

Collin Moshman said:

1 sunchin, unless you're in the big blind facing a small raise, it's usually better to fold A6o-A9o pre-flop facing a UTG raise. A big part of the reason why is because of the excellent example you give -- you're often not too happy to be in the pot even when you hit your ace!

If you do take a flop though, it would usually be better to call a bet with your top pair hand and see what happens on the late streets. Unless your opponent is passive or the board gets worse, you'll often be best to call down. But again, my bigger suggestion is to start folding a lot more pre-flop in these spots!

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Thanks, Collin!
But sometimes I fold on flop in this situation and villain show bluff or pocket pair - may be it's possible to check what he have really?

That would be nice! But rather than focus on showdown, just focus on good fundamental strategy. Like I said, you'll want to fold pre-flop in these spots and as played call the flop (and sometimes all the way) with top pair.

Thanks, Collin!
But if I raise on UTG with Ax and was calling by one villain, then see flop with A and two weak cards, how I must play with only one pair AA?

1sunchin said:

Thanks, Collin!
But if I raise on UTG with Ax and was calling by one villain, then see flop with A and two weak cards, how I must play with only one pair AA?

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Part of why I strongly prefer to fold weaker Ax holdings in early position is because it often leads to tricky spots post-flop like the one you describe above.

Oftentimes if you go for large bets with top pair, weak kicker then you will only be called by better hands. In other words it is hard to get value on these hands because you’re also representing better if you go for the same kind of value you would with the more premium opening range I’d advise from early position. And it is hard to get value from worse hands, and it you do, most likely the amount you make will be small. For all these reasons, I do not recommend playing weak or even medium aces from UTG.

Hope this helps [emoji4]

Katie Dozier said:

Part of why I strongly prefer to fold weaker Ax holdings in early position is because it often leads to tricky spots post-flop like the one you describe above.

Oftentimes if you go for large bets with top pair, weak kicker then you will only be called by better hands. In other words it is hard to get value on these hands because you’re also representing better if you go for the same kind of value you would with the more premium opening range I’d advise from early position. And it is hard to get value from worse hands, and it you do, most likely the amount you make will be small. For all these reasons, I do not recommend playing weak or even medium aces from UTG.

Hope this helps [emoji4]

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Thank you very much Katie!

Sorry for my repeat questions, but I couldn't understand how play with it. Now after your and Collin answers I began to understand some things about A with weak kicker.

Thanks again and good luck!

1sunchin said:

Thank you very much Katie!

Sorry for my repeat questions, but I couldn't understand how play with it. Now after your and Collin answers I began to understand some things about A with weak kicker.

Thanks again and good luck!

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So glad that our answers were helpful and best of luck to you!

Collin Moshman said:

For a beginner, here is my advice: Find an SNG format that you really enjoy and specialize in it. Study its strategy, get better and better at it, and keep your focus right there. For me that would probably be 9-man turbo SNG, but again just pick the one you like the best and get really good at playing them

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Hi Collin. First of all, I love your book. It’s helped me a lot in my recent goal of building a bankroll starting with micro SNGs.

I always preferred the regular SNGS vs turbo, but the level I’m playing at only has turbos. So far I’ve been applying the principles in your book, with great results. I’d love to hear if there are any tweaks that should be applied to the turbo game. Thanks for your time!

Thanks Bigfatrat! The biggest adjustment for turbos is the importance of shove/fold ranges, both open-shoving and 3-bet shoving. Here are a few tips for this type of game:

• Shove/fold with a stack of 10bb (no ante) or 15bb (with an ante);

• Shove any non-junk hand in the small blind;

• Jam over raises with a stack of 20bb (no ante) or 25bb (with an ante);

• Jam a lot over small blind limps when you're the big blind;

• Shove wide as the big stack on the bubble and tighter as the mid stack.

Software like Holdem Resources and ICMizer is very useful, and Holdem Resources has a free tool as well at their site. Good luck in the turbos!