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Message: [QUOTE="Bombjack, post: 427420, member: 11914"] Thanks for the feedback Twizzy.[B] In your case it isn't even close to being completed.[/B] I have top pair. Admittedly not a great kicker and it's not exactly what I was aiming for (i.e. straights or flushes) but probably the best at this point, so it is in a sense complete. This may well be strong enough to win the pot at showdown if I can narrow the field, and there are many less complete hands out there - e.g. anyone who's limped in with AJ, KQ or such like. [B] You tried to represent TPTK because of your position, the guy in the blind didn't believe you so he called. Yet the guy(s) who folded believed you had a higher kicker.[/B] I wasn't actually trying to represent TPTK. Just making a decent bet with top pair. There have been three checks before him, and the middle position guy makes a weak bet with only one person left to act. I've seen people bet before with a lot less than TPTK or even TPSK! :eek: It could be an attempt to buy the pot cheaply using his position, or he may have something, maybe pocket 6s or A5, or it may well be a block-bet / value bet on a flush draw. I don't think we can assume he has one of the two remaining 8s with a kicker higher than a 9. If he did, he should certainly make a bigger bet than this as he doesn't want higher cards coming on the turn or river. Even if the one or both of the other 8s were dealt out, personally I'd have folded almost any hand with an 8 in it pre-flop, K8 and A8 included (unless the A8 is suited or I have 78 or 89 suited in late position in a cheap multi-way pot), so if people play anything like me, it's unlikely there's another 8 in anyone's hand. [B]If the flop [U]does not fit your hand by giving you top pair, or better or a straight or flush draw[/U], then you should fold if there is a bet in front of you. If you played a small pair from late position and you do not flop a third one to make a set you should throw the pair away if there is a bet.[/B] I agree... also depends though how many players there are in the pot and how aggressive they are. Here I did have top pair and quite probably the best hand. If you think you have the best hand, it's a good idea in the long run to raise. Also, we need to cut down the pot odds for any drawers out there. I must at least call this bet - 50c into a pot of $1.75 means I only need to be 29% to win the pot to call (and I'm certainly not 71% sure I'm losing) - but if I just call then the players who checked get odds to draw out, so I think it's correct to raise here. [B] Yes and is Harrington always right? [/B] Of course, it's the Bible! :) Seriously though, people say it's the best book on NL Hold'em in existence so I take his advice. [B]I may even get the blinds to fold with a raise here. I definately want money in this pot especially for the times the cards do miss. I don't want to win some rinky dink pot especially when my hand isn't made after the flop. [/B]I think you're joking here... aren't you? With suited connectors you want see the flop as cheaply as possible, as they're speculative and work well in multi-way pots. So you don't actually want to force out the blinds. [B] Plenty of reason why you don't think you have best hand, it is called a stronger kicker, if you can't put in the blinds aresenal of a stronger kicker especially after his call. [/B]Well, it is possible that the blind holds A8 or K8 - unlikely though since he checked before me - but it doesn't matter since on the turn I would beat this with my 2 pair. [B]quote again from you "a draw that doesn't even exsist" [/B]I said I'm up against "draw that [U]probably[/U] doesn't even exist". Given the range of cards that people can be dealt, it's very probable that none of my opponents holds 2 clubs. For 1 opponent it's 5.1%. So against 4 opponents there's an 81% probability that none has 2 clubs (in fact slightly higher since people are more likely to play suited cards). I don't think I understood your first statement "no draws on the flop against a flush draw" properly - I think you mean I have no draws to a flush, but I thought you meant I had no draws to beat someone on a flush draw (i.e. a full house from trips). The point of my reply being that you probably don't need to be able to beat a flush if another club comes up. Although you need to give people bad odds by betting just in case. [B]So the rest you just factored up now, we can say actually say that. I am sure all those figures went through your head while thinking "a draw doesn't even exsist"[/B] Without other information, i.e. when I bet on the flop, there is probably no-one on a flush or straight draw, as discussed above. Given that he's called, it's more likely than before that he is on some sort of draw, and if he is on a draw, it's more likely to be a flush draw than a straight draw as I showed in my previous post. And it's more likely that his raise indicates 2 pair rather than a straight. I'm not some sort of genius who can work out these %ages in my head in 5 seconds - I'm using this thread as a post-mortem to work out the %ages in this situation, so maybe I'll have a better idea of how to deal with it in future. I think overall I played it correctly although I'm completely open to well-informed criticism. :) [/QUOTE]

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