River Betting (Day 12 Course Discussion)

[iveyfan]

In home games, I have seen people way too often bet 'incorrectly' on the river and end up surprised when people called with better hands. A lot of recreational players (in my opinion) do not think about showdown value enough (or at all) when considering river betting.

 

[Coinuss]

I often forgot to ask the main question on the river, and sometimes I did not have enough time to answer. Practice improves this skill, but more slowly than desired. It’s hard for me to answer it every time more than four tables are played. This question really helps to think about part of the villain’s range instead his full range.

 

[Katie Dozier]

In home games, I have seen people way too often bet 'incorrectly' on the river and end up surprised when people called with better hands. A lot of recreational players (in my opinion) do not think about showdown value enough (or at all) when considering river betting.

I totally agree that this is something recreational players often don't pay enough attention to, and is extremely important to being a winning player

 

[acidburnfx]

This value bet with a pair of 9 on the river with the set formed was interesting against AK, considering that hardly the opponent would have the 3 to make a straight.

 

[king11682]

Sometimes it is a very difficult decision to bet on the river or not, especially if there is a big pot on the table if we think that our hand is not so strong. Making a bluff there can cost you more chips. Sometimes both players settle for simply checking.

 

[fundiver199]

I totally agree that this is something recreational players often don't pay enough attention to, and is extremely important to being a winning player

Absolutely true. I can not count the times, I have checked the river with a showdown value type hand like second pair, faced a bet and decided to make the call only to get shown a hand like third pair, where I was like "why on earth did he bet???".

 

[hanio75]

“If I bet or raise here, what better hands will fold, and
what worse hands will call?”


I think many times the novice players 've not make question about these Two Purposes:

"The purpose of value bets is getting worse hands to call.
The purpose of bluffs is getting better hands to fold." (Moshman and Dozier. 2020)

And sometimes they thinking hard to fold one good pair that achieved on flop. Also some player don't know like cbet pós flop, turn and river. They stay blinds because getting a good pair or set no flop. Hown don't identify the vilain's profile, and do make notes, look the scenario.

This away I think should questions about the purposes of betting and recognize our status in the game, if are willing for that batle and your risks.

 

[freddydr87]

The river is the street in were we win or louse the most off our money,because the pot is generally big by this stage, and that is the key question,wish beater hands will fold and wish worse hand will call,is there any worse hand(some time the range off the vilain in river dont his booton hands he has foldem allready).
I have to manny dificulties by stracting value in river,do i bet and get paid by worse hands,or do a check to let the vilains missdraws bluff me? i found it very hard to read,

 

[Collin Moshman]

The river is the street in were we win or louse the most off our money,because the pot is generally big by this stage, and that is the key question,wish beater hands will fold and wish worse hand will call,is there any worse hand(some time the range off the vilain in river dont his booton hands he has foldem allready).
I have to manny dificulties by stracting value in river,do i bet and get paid by worse hands,or do a check to let the vilains missdraws bluff me? i found it very hard to read,

Good question. Checking to induce a bluff is best when there are lots of busted draws.

Rule of Thumb:

If you're unsure whether to check to induce bluffs or just bet yourself for value, then bet.

 

[CMack3]

Another great chapter. Fantastic to have a process to consider ever time on the river. I will definitely have to do more work on differentiating showdown value hands and value hands to bet.
Peace!

 

[Good Man]

The river in poker is the final stage of the hand and often the most important. Keep in mind that on this street you can use the entire Arsenal of tactics and bluffs, as in the previous stages. The ability to read the opponent's hands, a competent assessment of the strength of your hand, and skills to build up the Bank will play an important role in success. As shown in this lesson!
Was always afraid to put on the river, mostly I went ollin, seeing river or folder. I hope that over time, having played a large number of hands, I will be able to cope with practice.




Life is a game , play beautiful

 

[ZenGreen]

Very neat stuff here, Ill have to relook at some of these. I very bad at the river. As I want to incorporate more BET-FOLD lines to river (Ed Miller stresses it). Trouble when I start these what hands I beat and dont etc. I find I have trouble convincing myself what I do beat and dont at certain points LOL!!

 

[zerosalex]

Statistically I river bet (bluff) only when I'm last to act and they people confront have done 2 checks in a row OR if I have worst hand and know if I flip over I will lose since I have low cards, then I'll try to value bet and it works.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Very neat stuff here, Ill have to relook at some of these. I very bad at the river. As I want to incorporate more BET-FOLD lines to river (Ed Miller stresses it). Trouble when I start these what hands I beat and dont etc. I find I have trouble convincing myself what I do beat and dont at certain points LOL!!

River bet-folding can be a great line, particularly against passive opponents. The reason is that they can call with lots of hands so your bet will get good value. But when they raise, this shows a lot of strength (as late street raises generally do from many player types) so you can fold unless youre very strong.

 

[Phyrrura]

It always have been a great doubt for me the river actions, liked it very much how he explored that subject on the class, gave a lot to think for my future rivers and I'm really excited about play them from now on.

 

[carmenzu]

Analyze when betting or raising the river... When betting if your opponent folds, you realize your fold equity, on the contrary the opponent who loses his pot equity.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Analyze when betting or raising the river... When betting if your opponent folds, you realize your fold equity, on the contrary the opponent who loses his pot equity.

That's very true, anytime it turns out your fold equity was 100% that means your opponent's equity in the pot fell to 0%. I like that way of looking at it

 

[Vallet]

The purpose of value bets is getting worse hands to call. The purpose of bluffs is getting
better hands to fold.
Very often it happens when on the river we start to doubt that we are still ahead. For example.
We have .
Flop: . We bet, the villain calls.
Turn: . We bet, the villain calls.
River:
The Board looks very dangerous. Maybe we were long behind. The worst villain hands to call are a ten with a bad kicker, a pair of sixes, or A-high, but a lot of other hands beat us. I would like to ask about terminology. Our bet on the river is value bet in this case? or is it a bluff? And is there a reason to bet here?

 

[Collin Moshman]

Great question Vallet.

It could be either a bluff or value bet depending on the situation. For example, if it's a blind-vs-blind spot and we're up against an opponent who never folds, you could value bet KT here.

If you raised UTG and got called by a tight player in mid position, firing this third barrel would definitely be turning our hand into a bluff.

In most situations though, I would just check here since KT has plenty of showdown value without being good enough to value bet.

 

[Vallet]

Great question Vallet.

It could be either a bluff or value bet depending on the situation. For example, if it's a blind-vs-blind spot and we're up against an opponent who never folds, you could value bet KT here.

If you raised UTG and got called by a tight player in mid position, firing this third barrel would definitely be turning our hand into a bluff.

In most situations though, I would just check here since KT has plenty of showdown value without being good enough to value bet.

Thanks for the answer. I used an example from my head, because these things happen often. The worst thing is to get reraise from the opponent.

 

[birdman666]

Hello CCers,

I am a little worried these days with the high frequency of talking to myself. But I do like the results of many of my decisions when I do ask myself the important question on the river;

Which worst hand will call me?
Which better hand I can get to fold?

These questions really help me to think critically to get the right bet sizing or the big laydown in some situations. I try not to take too long to get my thoughts together and it really helps if I think ahead. Many times, I think my opponents go with the flow of the game and do not stop to review the action in many spots and this works out in my favour more often than not.

Truth be told, I get a bit too much pleasure from getting villain to fold instead of enticing the call of a small bet size on the river. This is an area of my game that I need to improve. I have seen many players happily collect 1 BB on the river holding the nuts, instead of scaring their opponents away with a shove or a huge pot bet. This is something I should incorporate in my game and tournaments as well.

Only if you believe the information he gets about you by showing your hand is worth winning 1BB. I prefer if he folds and keep my hand a secret in most cases. In addition, by making a bigger bet you are asking him to make a mistake, which happens sometimes.

 

[Katie Dozier]

interesting info

Glad to hear it

 

[imnoobpoker]

Thank you for day 12. I think this subject was one of the advanced ones in the course until now. Should you river bet yes or no, and do I still have the best hand? This mindset can be created after playing many hands and experiencing many different situations.

Thank you for tipping this topic, let go to day 13.

 

[Katie Dozier]

Thank you for day 12. I think this subject was one of the advanced ones in the course until now. Should you river bet yes or no, and do I still have the best hand? This mindset can be created after playing many hands and experiencing many different situations.

Thank you for tipping this topic, let go to day 13.

Hooray and best of luck on day 13!

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

Quiz answer is NO. It's not likely that a worse hand is going to call and not a lot of better hands will fold, I doubt there are many Jacks or Nines out there but marginal hands like an 8, 4 or some small PP are likely to call with their bluff catchers.

Great video, this is the best one so far!