$5 NLHE 6-max: zoom - Betting right when flush completes on the turn?

This is very common scenario OTT, but which is correct bet or X? Both ways have strengths and weaknesses. Stats say villain is TAG with some fish still left.

PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 104 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 9)
Hero (SB): 129.8 BB
BB: 101.8 BB (VPIP: 19.35, PFR: 19.35, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 32)
UTG: 105.4 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
MP: 234.2 BB
CO: 88.4 BB (VPIP: 14.81, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 55)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q♥ Q♦

fold, MP raises to 3.4 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 3 BB, fold

Flop: (7.8 BB, 2 players) Q♠ 2♠ T♦
Hero checks, MP bets 3.8 BB, Hero raises to 14.4 BB, MP calls 10.6 BB

Turn: (36.6 BB, 2 players) 4♠
Hero bets 20 BB

Yup... and CR more on the flop. Why flat the QQ OOP here also?

How much more I should raise? That is 3.8x times original raise. I have seen you saying that before too, but I have forgotten how much is correct. Googling gives 3x - 3.5x the original bet, this might be correct only pre.

Is there any opponent type you would NOT bet turn?

No special reason not to raise pre, yes I know it's wrong, and I lose money compared to raise. I played very passively the whole session, lazy I guess.

Depends on how many opponents you're raising into to. Also your raise should be the same almost everytime to be un-exploitable. 3x - 3.5 into one opponent is standard.

Playing QQ OOP is hard. With the stack sizes I think you should have 3 bet pre and forced villain to define his hand. If your get and ace or a king on the flop you need to slow down and likely fold, but when you hit you bet 2/3s pot. If Villain floats his AK or flush draw calling ~14 BBs and leaving the pot at ~50 BBs with your remaining stack at ~105BB, he is not getting sufficient odds to call. There is always the chance he binks the turn and you lose a big pot (which he may have), but if he doesn't (as he will 75% of the time) you pot it leaving him with few options.

what were villains stats? just curious.

seems like villains range after he f;ats your c/r is AA,KK, Axs, and maybe JJ, and but doubt it. I feel like he stacks off otf w/ 22, TT.

note: im just getting back into playing and posting so i apologize if i left anything out

Thx for input. I did read them all many times back in time.

weldphaser said:

what were villains stats? just curious.

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There was just around 10 hands, they seemed to indicate villain is just ordinary for the level. I gave him an expected background to get focused answers, you know how hard it’s to give an answer to fit all opponent styles. Btw he folded.

braveslice said:

No special reason not to raise pre, yes I know it's wrong, ...

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Well I lied a bit. I feel OOP QQ raising and getting action on flop/after flop means I'm pretty much dead against TAGs. Now, I lied because I know I'm wrong in my feeling (feeling does not make fact), however I just noticed black rain writes like this:

http://www.blackrain79.com/2015/07/the-step-by-step-guide-to-dominating-in.html
"When I am OOP (out of position) I will still 3Bet them on occasion with these hands just because of the difficulties that OOP play presents." He is talking about {TT+, AK}

Could it be that flatting, even in OOP, against typical nit 3bet TAG in zoom tables is not very wrong?

braveslice said:

Could it be that flatting, even in OOP, against typical nit 3bet TAG in zoom tables is not very wrong?

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Just because something isn't exactly wrong doesn't make it the best play.

Im betting more on the turn to extract value from Ace or king.... we check raised... so yup more.

And if spade comes out river.. im shoving there too...

im getting stacks in


also im 3betting pre

IPlay said:

Just because something isn't exactly wrong doesn't make it the best play.

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Aces2w1n said:

also im 3betting pre

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That is true. However, blackrain suggest calling is best play. He calls more OOP than not against villains who “fold way too much to 3Bets and only 4Bet if they have the absolute nuts.” I don’t know that blackrain guy, but I know he is quite famous.
Also his teachings are the same than my gut feeling about how I should play vs. players like this.

Aces2w1n said:

Im betting more on the turn to extract value from Ace or king.... we check raised... so yup more.

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19bb?