Blind defending, 3 Betting and flatting

youregoodmate · Jan 15, 2013

orangepeeleo said:
Man, every time a 3bet discussion comes up I realise how little I know lol

I'd rather 3bet 89s than A6o!

Reasons being that if we do see a flop, 89s can smash it and be a well disguised hand, kind of a 3bet light-semibluff lol

Yeah same here. My 3 bet is already around 6%, and as you say I would far rather 3 bet 89s than A6o.

Cafeman · Jan 15, 2013

I'd rather 3bet bluff with A6o than 98s OTB vs a MP open, but it is soooo dépendant on how he plays pre and post, whether we have squeezers in the blinds etc. etc.

So you fold A6o and 3bet 98s?

I was just offering a thought towards maximising value with both. We also have a blocker to big ace hands with A6o. Again though, not trying to say anything hard and fast, because we can't.

OMGITSOVER9K · Jan 15, 2013

lol Cafe dont teach them bad habits.

reverse implied odds ftw btw.

youregoodmate · Jan 15, 2013

Bad habits? Please explain. Wtf are reverse implied odds? I have so much to learn.

orangepeeleo · Jan 15, 2013

Reverse implied odds are, with that A6o example, your either going to win a small pot, or lose a big one. Opposite of implied odds where your either gonna lose a small pot when you c/f Kxx with 89s, or win a big one when you get it in vs KK on 88x

OMGITSOVER9K · Jan 15, 2013

or A6o on Axx flops and he flats AQ OOP.

granted we can pot control, but yeah.

Cafeman · Jan 15, 2013

I aint going broke post; it's a bluff pre.

acky100 · Jan 15, 2013

Why A6o and not ATo? or AJo? The hands you 3bet bluff should be very dependant on your calling range!

Cafeman · Jan 15, 2013

acky100 said:
Why A6o and not ATo? or AJo? The hands you 3bet bluff should be very dependant on your calling range!

I agree.

acky100 · Jan 15, 2013

Cafeman31 said:
I agree.

good

now stop 3betting them A6 off suits

Cafeman · Jan 15, 2013

acky100 said:
good now stop 3betting them A6 off suits

When you stop folding ATo to it sure

Cafeman · Jan 15, 2013

But really, just read what I was trying to say... we aren't ALWAYS doing anything right.

OMGITSOVER9K · Jan 15, 2013

yeah, I just think that advocating it to people/lurkers who will then start going off to 3bet rag Aces OTB when they aren't super comfortable postflop.

they'll just get into terrible spots which is why I'm saying 3bet 89s and stuff because we can flop better and apply pressure with draws etc IP.

I'm also counting draws as 5 outs when we have a pair on flops and their range is defined as a weak overpair.. for example villain has TT on 963r flop vs our 89s

- 4betting this is better since 4bets get flatted less than 3bets anyway.. reverse implied odds etc apply less because of SPR

Cafeman · Jan 15, 2013

Tend to agree with you, and I will say again; I was only advocating people think rather than work off a chart. I don't 3bet much fwiw.

acky100 · Jan 15, 2013

Cafeman31 said:
Tend to agree with you, and I will say again; I was only advocating people think rather than work off a chart. I don't 3bet much fwiw.

yeh i get you, 3betting A6o is far better than 3betting 87s if the next orbit you call with 87s in a similar spot

OMGITSOVER9K · Jan 15, 2013

acky100 said:
yeh i get you, 3betting A6o is far better than 3betting 87s if the next orbit you call with 87s in a similar spot

sigh, explain then

orangepeeleo · Jan 15, 2013

acky100 · Jan 15, 2013

I could literally spend hours explaining 3betting ranges etc but im not gonna!
basically if 87s is good enough to be called with then don't 3bet it, our bluffs we use in polarised ranges should always be at the bottom of our calling range, hands that arent quite profitable to call with but are profitable to 3bet, so we make money with a wider range of hands, some of which arent profitable unless we bluff with them, some that are profitable to call, and some which are strong enough where we want to 3bet them for value

GOTHEART · Jan 15, 2013

Great conversation! I think that there are no rules to apply every time. My opponent dictates my behavior more than my cards, though.

But I would change-up my response often against this positional preflop raiser to keep him guessing!

OMGITSOVER9K · Jan 15, 2013

acky100 said:
I could literally spend hours explaining 3betting ranges etc but im not gonna!
basically if 87s is good enough to be called with then don't 3bet it, our bluffs we use in polarised ranges should always be at the bottom of our calling range, hands that arent quite profitable to call with but are profitable to 3bet, so we make money with a wider range of hands, some of which arent profitable unless we bluff with them, some that are profitable to call, and some which are strong enough where we want to 3bet them for value

but then 3betting hands that play badly against his calling range is retarded

granted you can flat with 89s but again since a lot of people here play fit or fold on flops/turns then 3betting it IP becomes more profitable since most regs fold to 3bets a lot at FR. (this at FR or 6max?)

name hands in the bottom of your polarised range then genius, cant see not 3betting the nuts coz you're a nit

but seriously you're not 3betting like K7o are you?

again 4b/fold these hands > 3betting MP opens with them

youregoodmate · Jan 15, 2013

6 max no one plays FR anymore

c9h13no3 · Jan 15, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
but because of people wide opening ranges we also need to have a wide flatting range.. talked with Ack about this before and we need to be flatting hands like K8o/ATo etc when they're opening so wide OTB.

I haven't read this whole thing, but I can't see how flatting K8o OOP can be profitable. I also disagree with the principle of your argument. Why do we need a wide flatting range? Do we enjoy playing OOP?

Cafeman · Jan 15, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
but then 3betting hands that play badly against his calling range is retarded

If we're expecting him to call then we ought not to be bluffing. I have no problem giving up post flop if the 'move' didn't work out pre.

OMGITSOVER9K said:
granted you can flat with 89s but again since a lot of people here play fit or fold on flops/turns then 3betting it IP becomes more profitable since most regs fold to 3bets a lot at FR. (this at FR or 6max?)

So perhaps 98s IP could be more profitable in some circumstances as a flat call pre, rather than turning it into a bluff.

But as you know, it depends on so many factors. I'm rarely 3betting 98s OTB vs a tight MP opener (with a lowish f3bet) and 2 mouth breathers in the blinds.

acky100 · Jan 15, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
but then 3betting hands that play badly against his calling range is retarded

granted you can flat with 89s but again since a lot of people here play fit or fold on flops/turns then 3betting it IP becomes more profitable since most regs fold to 3bets a lot at FR. (this at FR or 6max?)

name hands in the bottom of your polarised range then genius, cant see not 3betting the nuts coz you're a nit but seriously you're not 3betting like K7o are you?

again 4b/fold these hands > 3betting MP opens with them

No im never 3betting hands like K7o IP, theres a million variables on what my flatting range looks like, but im not gonna 3bet my flatting range and the hand i 3bet as a bluff will be the ones just below my calling range that i cant call profitably, so K9s K8s 65s maybe, totally depends how wide im flatting could be some suited aces if i dont wanna flat them, so yeh i 3bet lots of different types of hands but i never have to go to trashy hands like K7o because i'm never calling IP with a hand like K8 or K9o vs anyone who is gonna fold to 3bets

OMGITSOVER9K · Jan 15, 2013

acky100 said:
No im never 3betting hands like K7o IP, theres a million variables on what my flatting range looks like, but im not gonna 3bet my flatting range and the hand i 3bet as a bluff will be the ones just below my calling range that i cant call profitably, so K9s K8s 65s maybe, totally depends how wide im flatting could be some suited aces if i dont wanna flat them, so yeh i 3bet lots of different types of hands but i never have to go to trashy hands like K7o because i'm never calling IP with a hand like K8 or K9o vs anyone who is gonna fold to 3bets

yeah thats what I figured it would be, just wanted to check

c9h13no3 said:
I haven't read this whole thing, but I can't see how flatting K8o OOP can be profitable. I also disagree with the principle of your argument. Why do we need a wide flatting range? Do we enjoy playing OOP?

not arguing with you, you want to 3bet 99 vs BTN opens because it doesn't stand up postflop

Cafeman31 said:
If we're expecting him to call then we ought not to be bluffing. I have no problem giving up post flop if the 'move' didn't work out pre.

So perhaps 98s IP could be more profitable in some circumstances as a flat call pre, rather than turning it into a bluff.

But as you know, it depends on so many factors. I'm rarely 3betting 98s OTB vs a tight MP opener (with a lowish f3bet) and 2 mouth breathers in the blinds.

I guess, but 3betting and not cbetting ever seems like a waste? surely you get the fact that villains can come up with the top mid of their range in spots so will flat OOP, even if villains have a wide range and fold a lot of it to cbets.

so I'm saying for the times we run into the top mid of their range we should have hands that can at least flop equity so we can apply pressure instead of either being dominated, bricking flops or having to give up a lot post.

not against flatting it, just think that 3betting that is better than A6o imo

Blind defending, 3 Betting and flatting

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