Folding QQ preflop, cash game.

BogdanStark · May 10, 2016

Timmah120 said:
Hey all,

I read an interesting thread on folding QQ during tournaments. I ran into pocket KK in a cash game recently online with QQ.

The tourney thread specifically (and correctly, in my opinion) outlines the perfect times to fold QQ preflop. So my question is...how about cash games? Should you ever fold QQ? What are the odds that your opponent will be dealt KK, AA, or the coin-flip situation, AK?

Ignore the idiots that shove with inferior cards and suck-out...that's not really what I'm concerned about.

Thanks!

As for me, it is quiet difficult fold preflop QQ, especial when some fishes pushed every hands.

partz · May 10, 2016

In my opinion pocket aces, qq, kk, jj into an important tournament or cash games, are quite dangerous hands, esspecialy when, lets say into a table with 9 players 5 or 6 of them calls to see the flop. In that case the chances that the flop to be low cards are pretty big and someone with A, K, Q, J and a small kicker can easily hit the flop and make a straight or a 3 of a kind.

Turn7 · May 10, 2016

Of course there are times when you should fold QQ. But it depends always on the situation i.e. other monsters, slow playing opponents, Ax-combinations...

Sometimes it happens that you run in a stronger hand like KK oder AA. But mostly the AA oder KK will be raised higher than AQ or QJs. Then you should fold!

The wrongest thing is if you play the hand whatever comes, thinking you have the best hand anyway! Listen to the acting of your opponents and your feeling, too...

Mauno · May 10, 2016

Depends.... who are your opponents and how they play. In cash game you have probably better chance to win compared to beginning of tournament. Just pair is not worth much.
In cash game playing agressive would give some edge.

subdylzep · May 10, 2016

Generally you may be ahead most of the time when holding QQ preflop, but that isnt all you have to consider. First of all, like stated, every situation is going to be different and the range is going to depend on the villain. But odds wise you will probably be ahead when facing a 3/4 bet preflop with QQ most of the time, but its not a hand you really want to play w that much in the pot without seeing the flop. Cash games are more about value and how to get the value, its going to be more advantageous for you to flat a 3 bet rather than going over the top and facing a 4 bet in the first place. Even if your opponent isnt holding the AA or KK you'll still have to worry about the flop, any A any K or any flush/straight draws that hit the board as well as lower pairs that could set up your opponent. Chances are you'll rarely want to call a 4 bet shove from any player preflop w QQ. If its a really loose player w a large range it might be a good move, but even then you are proabbly going to have to fade a lot. In most cases its better to see the flop first with high pairs, maybe make a nice reraise preflop and if faced w a 3 bet just flat it and see whats out there before making any further decisions, stay away from overplaying the QQ preflop is my suggestion overall.

nikkouy · May 10, 2016

never tried that one though..i will try that one next time

EXTREMUM · May 15, 2016

rigor mortis said:
So many unknowns here to give a definitive answer. Number of players in the pot, size of stacks, expertise of players, etc. Play QQ normally, if there is a raise and a reraise, best to fold

I agree. 3, 4, and 5-bets are talking AA, KK, premium Ax, a rare KQ suited, or a rarer numbered pocket pair to strike lucky (like a few 8/8's hitting full houses, last night). Chances are, your pocket Js and Qs are either blocked or dominated, pre-flop.

I've witnessed all three QQ flips lose, last night alone.

TeUnit · May 15, 2016

dont think you should fold it preflop, maybe just focus on understanding stack depths and the villans better

CHILOWWW · May 16, 2016

it is clear that if the UN player with KK, AA or AK Subirà Betting Every Time I See convenient so if you UN QQ we recommend you go up and if they reraise tribetear according to the movement of another player can convince yourself that you have a weaker than that of the hand.

bookoface · May 16, 2016

It totally depends on the kind of table you're playing. I'd personally never fold QQ preflop unless it's my whole bankroll and i'm not pot commited. Sometimes you got luck & sometimes not. It's stays random. AA can lose from 27. It's just unlikely that QQ will lose in my opinion. Considering the player has played some hands in the past hours.

mar_dragan · May 16, 2016

In my opinion QQ all in before flop is gambling.
3-bet is perfect with this cards.But if your stack is low you probaably should go all in and gamble.

VGShaa · May 16, 2016

DanBilzerian said:
I lost 9 of 10 preflop shove with Pocket Jacks too , so useless ... its on of the pairs i hate on Pokerstars

I never shoves with jacks in cash games, on 3 bet I fold it

braveslice · May 17, 2016

c9h13no3 said:
I feel like I post this chart once a week...

Opponent's 3-bet Percentage Required to 4-bet/call off preflop for 100bb's.
* KK+: Good against any range
* QQ: vs 3% or higher
* JJ: vs 6.5% or higher
* TT: vs 8.5% or higher
* 99: vs 10.5% or higher
* 88: vs 12.5% or higher
* 77: vs 14% or higher
* AKs: vs 3% or higher
* AQs: vs 8% or higher
* AJs: vs 13% or higher
* AKo: vs 5% or higher
* AQo: vs 9% or higher

If you're facing a 4-bet instead of a 3-bet, it becomes a little more complicated. And it should be a less frequent spot, since you should rarely be 3-bet/folding queens. Because if you're planning to 3-bet/fold as your line, you should probably just flat their open in the first place.

So yeah, I'll save the "facing a 4-bet" math for someone else.

These 3bet charts should be banned, they are giving totally wrong idea about the ranges involved and should be only used when playing against a fish who doesn’t know how to play, or completely NIT.

3bet ranges are not fixed anymore, you don’t make decent money even in NL5 if you do use fixed ranges, you chose the hand you 3bet according to position and villain, making range analysis complete misleading for new players using these charts. Yes later on when you ‘feel’ the situation you can use them as a guide.

Haha, */rant of*/, sorry

sCATpoker · May 17, 2016

QQ I have folded preflop in cash games once while getting the feeling I was ahead. The reason being there are always other spots to pick and choose no need to put 500 dollars at risk when you only have 15 dollars invested in the pot. Turns out the player only had pocket 10's and my hand would of held up, however I still am glad with my decision and was able to win several of hundred of dollars from that individual as the night progressed even though he was playing directly to my left.

MarceloMC · May 30, 2016

I would never fold a QQ pre flop neither in a cash game nor in a MTT...otherwise against a very TIght player with a monster stack who pushed "all in" from an innitial position (I.e. possibly holding AA or KK)...

Matthew tudberry · May 30, 2016

Folding QQ pre flop in a cash game takes a) deep stacks of more than 50bb b) player specific ranges. And even then it has to be a hefty raise or all in or four bet plus. Not recommended, if you are concerned about over pairs to specific players then pot control against a range post flop too.

droozy · May 30, 2016

info

Hello,

It really depends on situation, opponents and whether you play online or live. I am cash game live regular, blinds 0.25/0.50, 0.50/1 and 1/2 EUR and even in micro or small stakes poker i found sitiations where i had to fold QQ preflop due to my good read of opponent, who had pocket AA. But, i think, in online poker is much harder to fold QQ preflop because you have much less information.

Mafinor · May 31, 2016

depends on ones 3bet percentage

burdesasha · May 31, 2016

All-in with QQ with little stak

dgospa · Jun 1, 2016

biaavia said:
If somebody goes all in in cash game I throw QQ in 85%. 3-5 bet is perfect

Yeah in that situation seems fold is nice move in 80% cases.

teofilo leandro ynca · Jun 2, 2016

The pair of QQ are good cards to play it but has a high Probability of losing that hand because your opponent can have a pair of KK, or AA . AK any of these three possible cards you can earn is 60 % to 40% so it's soft play if you do not expect them to bend and send your regular pay aver if you get the Q and you have threesome

c9h13no3 · Jun 3, 2016

The most interesting thing is this thread, is how terrible people are at reading charts.

mauroc711 · Jun 4, 2016

The dilemma is not very complex, depending on the game situation, but basically, as a general rule than should be adjusted to emotional factors and other circumstances, fold if the opponent is very tight, or call if an aggressive player.

quick · Jun 5, 2016

I've folded QQ live and online both in tourney and cash spots. If I raise it up and someone raises me, I re-raise and they shove, I'm assuming they have AA or KK most of the time. Like others here, I've seen them turn over AKo, and sometimes 99-JJ and I would've won.

But as sCAT said, why risk your entire stack on a gamble in these spots. Sure if I'm at 25NL online and the pot is $5 , I raise pot, he reraises, and I only have $10 behind me left if I call his 3 bet then might as well shove or fold. But if I have like $100 at 25NL and he has say $60 and shoves, am I really risking 60% of my stack on QQ pre? And live at $1/2 if I have less than $60ish behind me I'm likely shoving any raise pre with QQ but if i was sitting with $300 or so and someone shoves $200 into like a $20 pot pre, im folding. Why risk it?

billbaffles · Jun 6, 2016

I read somewhere to 3-bet QQ and then call a 3-bet or 4-bet as long as stack sizes are 20x the bet size. Has something to do with implied odds if you hit your hand and being able to stack your opponent. I think that was what the site i read suggested for pocket pairs QQ and lower but not the 3-bet part, but to call a 3-bet if the effective stack is that size. I think it has something to do with the 1 out of 17 times or whatever it is you hit your set on the flop and a 3-bet is usually AA KK AK etc so you have a good chance of getting your opponents stack especially with the first 2. It is also very opponent dependent though as well, if the player is bad and they move in a lot, i would call every time.

Folding QQ preflop, cash game.

BogdanStark

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