How do mega-nitty players make money

JusSumguy · Nov 12, 2011

jsaw said:
I've played against Stu Unger in various tournaments and fully agree with the other comment that maybe you should be listening to him. I don't play at lot of ring games - usually 1/2 - hour session - far too short to have having a winning track record. But Stu plays tourneys and ring game well. So if he is giving free advice I'm listening, maybe you should too.

I do. Believe me.

-

AAChipMagnet · Nov 12, 2011

Positive EV and good BRM.

F4STFORW4RD · Nov 13, 2011

Stu_Ungar said:
The sheer volume of threads started by you concerning 2NL SS Nits makes this difficult.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/do-you-avoid-shortstackers-fr-cash-202359/

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/how-do-you-deal-short-stackers-202713/

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/how-do-mega-nitty-players-make-202981/

There is now even a spin-off thread started by KD.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/my-cash-thread-only-playing-5-a-203044/#post1813449

I made two threads about shortstackers. This thread is not about shortstackers. In the second thread about shortstackers, I said this:

Sorry, I have already asked this question here:

Do you avoid shortstackers in FR cash games at PS?

Please feel free to delete this thread

jsaw said:
I've played against Stu Unger in various tournaments and fully agree with the other comment that maybe you should be listening to him. I don't play at lot of ring games - usually 1/2 - hour session - far too short to have having a winning track record. But Stu plays tourneys and ring game well. So if he is giving free advice I'm listening, maybe you should too.

I'm always happy to listen to constructive advice, especially from such a respected player, but I'm not interested in being lectured or being talked to as if I'm a naughty schoolgirl. Not sure why various people here are calling him Stu Unger btw, it must make Stu Ungar turn in his grave.

F4STFORW4RD · Nov 13, 2011

Teppersinger said:
So he needs people to call shoves with worse hands...

Not too hard to do that at 2nl, especially at weekends

Poker Stars - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em (9 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $0.93
BB: $1.59
UTG: $0.74
UTG+1: $1.86
MP Hero: $2.16
MP+1: $1.54
MP+2: $3.12
CO: $2.20
BTN: $3.03

Pre-flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP and dealt

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, 2 folds, CO raises to $0.14, 2 folds, BB calls $0.12, Hero raises to $2.16 (All-in), CO calls $2.02, BB folds

Flop: ($4.47)

(2 players)

Turn: ($4.47)

(2 players)

River: ($4.47)

(2 players)

Final Pot: $4.47

Showdown:

Hero shows

(two pair, kings and tens)

CO shows

(a quads of tens)

Outcome: CO wins $4.25

alaskabill · Nov 13, 2011

F4STFORW4RD said:
Also there's a SS player with stats of 2/1/0 that I have 100 hands on - he just 3bet me OTB and I nearly fell off my chair!

This post is where you brought up shortstackers ITT. That's why Stu posted as he did. I don't really care about this spat but you did bring up shortstackers again. I do realize that your original point was about nits.

Here's what we can agree on I think about this thread:

1. Nits can beat 2nl, its not optimal but you can do it.

2. Stu gives good enough advice that putting him on ignore is -EV.

l

KerouacsDog · Nov 13, 2011

alaskabill said:
This post is where you brought up shortstackers ITT. That's why Stu posted as he did. I don't really care about this spat but you did bring up shortstackers again. I do realize that your original point was about nits.

Here's what we can agree on I think about this thread:

1. Nits can beat 2nl, its not optimal but you can do it.

2. Stu gives good enough advice that putting him on ignore is -EV.

l

+1

only_bridge · Nov 13, 2011

The big question is why would anyone play 300k hands of 2nl without evolving and without any intention of ever moving up.

F4STFORW4RD · Nov 13, 2011

alaskabill said:
This post is where you brought up shortstackers ITT. That's why Stu posted as he did. I don't really care about this spat but you did bring up shortstackers again. I do realize that your original point was about nits.

Here's what we can agree on I think about this thread:

1. Nits can beat 2nl, its not optimal but you can do it.

2. Stu gives good enough advice that putting him on ignore is -EV.

l

He's not on ignore, but I do wish that he could give me constructive advice without feeling the need to talk down to me.

only_bridge said:
The big question is why would anyone play 300k hands of 2nl without evolving and without any intention of ever moving up.

Is that definitely the case, though? A few people at this forum have confirmed that they were nits at 2nl, but it was only when they moved up to higher stakes that they started to loosen up a bit.

WVHillbilly · Nov 13, 2011

F4STFORW4RD said:
He's not on ignore, but I do wish that he could give me constructive advice without feeling the need to talk down to me.

Is that definitely the case, though? A few people at this forum have confirmed that they were nits at 2nl, but it was only when they moved up to higher stakes that they started to loosen up a bit.

A person with a vpip of 4 isn't even a nit yet. They're idiots who are hoping to make a few cents per 1000 hands without ever needing to make a tough decision. You can learn nothing from their games. Don't waste your time trying. Just take their money (steal blinds and set mine them) and laugh.

alaskabill · Nov 13, 2011

If you want to read something constructive about playing a tight range (a lot more than vpip 4 though) Here is a great post from the golden archives.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/a-nits-apology-why-tight-right-154124/

F4STFORW4RD · Nov 13, 2011

WVHillbilly said:
A person with a vpip of 4 isn't even a nit yet. They're idiots who are hoping to make a few cents per 1000 hands without ever needing to make a tough decision. You can learn nothing from their games. Don't waste your time trying. Just take their money (steal blinds and set mine them) and laugh.

Yes, as usual you're right. Actually I tried tightening up yesterday and playing more tables, but it didn't last very long. Firstly it's a lot less fun, secondly people stopped paying off my big hands. So I just ended up playing more tables but not tightening up.

alaskabill said:
If you want to read something constructive about playing a tight range (a lot more than vpip 4 though) Here is a great post from the golden archives.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/a-nits-apology-why-tight-right-154124/

Thanks yes, it's a great thread. My rodgy podgy (NoWuckingFurries) had already shown me that thread previously. To somebody that has only played FR it seems odd to hear somebody that had stats of 19/16 describing themselves as a nit.

KoRnholio · Nov 13, 2011

Massive volume
Bad players at those stakes still give them action
They're probably around breakeven before bonuses/VIP benefits/etc

I was sitting with a Pokerstars redname pro at a 2/4 LHE table once, recently. He was an uber nit, 20+ tabling full ring 2/4 and 3/6 LHE mostly. I checked out his stats, and he's a solid -0.50BB/100 LOSER. Over 3 million hands played in just a few years. Yet due to SuperNova rewards bonuses and stuff, he's still making like $40-50k a year I'd bet.

Talk about a grind. That's probably 8+ hours a day, 6 days a week of 20+ tabling. Not even breaking even at the tables. Putting in that kind of volume I don't think you could ever even really improve and move up stakes. He's definitely settled on being a tight, button masher.

F4STFORW4RD · Nov 13, 2011

KoRnholio said:
I was sitting with a Pokerstars redname pro at a 2/4 LHE table once, recently. He was an uber nit, 20+ tabling full ring 2/4 and 3/6 LHE mostly. I checked out his stats, and he's a solid -0.50BB/100 LOSER. Over 3 million hands played in just a few years. Yet due to SuperNova rewards bonuses and stuff, he's still making like $40-50k a year I'd bet.

Talk about a grind. That's probably 8+ hours a day, 6 days a week of 20+ tabling. Not even breaking even at the tables. Putting in that kind of volume I don't think you could ever even really improve and move up stakes. He's definitely settled on being a tight, button masher.

So they make people redname pros even if they're not particularly good at playing poker?

WVHillbilly · Nov 13, 2011

KoRnholio said:
Massive volume
Bad players at those stakes still give them action
They're probably around breakeven before bonuses/VIP benefits/etc

I was sitting with a Pokerstars redname pro at a 2/4 LHE table once, recently. He was an uber nit, 20+ tabling full ring 2/4 and 3/6 LHE mostly. I checked out his stats, and he's a solid -0.50BB/100 LOSER. Over 3 million hands played in just a few years. Yet due to SuperNova rewards bonuses and stuff, he's still making like $40-50k a year I'd bet.

Talk about a grind. That's probably 8+ hours a day, 6 days a week of 20+ tabling. Not even breaking even at the tables. Putting in that kind of volume I don't think you could ever even really improve and move up stakes. He's definitely settled on being a tight, button masher.

Pretty sure being a red pro is worth at least $150K.

KoRnholio · Nov 13, 2011

F4STFORW4RD said:
So they make people redname pros even if they're not particularly good at playing poker?

Apparently.

http://www.pokerstars.com/team-pokerstars/team-online/richard-veenman/

Then do a little search for him at pokertableratings and you'll experience a nice "wtf, how the fuuuhh" moment.

If you don't have an account there, his current cash game "winnings" since Aug 2008 are approx -$40k. He's paid about $210k in rake during that period, over 2.7 million hands.

F4STFORW4RD · Nov 13, 2011

It's a funny old world.

mrmonkey · Nov 13, 2011

F4STFORW4RD said:
So they make people redname pros even if they're not particularly good at playing poker?

I can think of a few different reasons why poker sites will give out "pro" status to certain people. It's not only based on how strong they are as poker players. Also, not all the strongest poker players are "pros".

Some reasons why a poker site might sign a player:

* They are big poker celebrities, and bring huge exposure to the site.

* They have mini-celebrity status and maybe also play live poker, thus sometimes getting on TV and giving free advertising when they wear their logos. Not all poker celebrities are necessarily strong online players, nor are they necessarily even strong players at all. Someone luckboxing their way to the top of a 1,000+ field MTT is not that unusual.

* They grind massively and offer some sort of benefit to the site in terms of internet publicity. Pokerpoopy started a thread here trying to drum up support of his quest to break the single-year FPP record before Black Friday dropped. This isn't to say that Pokerpoopy wasn't skilled -- he was, but he probably wasn't going to become a sponsored pro based on his poker skills alone.

* They might have friends in high places, or have some sort of mutually advantageous deal with the site for zero rake.

mrmonkey · Nov 13, 2011

F4STFORW4RD said:
There is no rakeback on PS.

Also, just to clarify this for others who might still be confused, while there is no traditional rakeback system on PS where you automatically get a percentage of rake back at the end of a playing period, the VIP point system is basically just as good as rakeback, since you can exchange the points for actual cash.

The higher you climb the VIP ladder, the better the rewards (ie, "rakeback" percentage)

baudib1 · Nov 13, 2011

19/16 is definitely nitty at the stakes he was playing.

F4STFORW4RD · Nov 13, 2011

mrmonkey said:
... the VIP point system is basically just as good as rakeback, since you can exchange the points for actual cash.

The higher you climb the VIP ladder, the better the rewards (ie, "rakeback" percentage)

FWIW I don't agree with this, especially not for tournament players. FT were paying 27% rakeback for any level of play, so my hubby could quite happily play 25c SNGs and would receive 27% of the rake back. At PS you are a bronze star (i.e. no rewards except for a few FPPs) until you can hit 750 VPP per month. 750 VPP equates to a LOT of 25c SNGs. So PS is fine if you are doing high volumes, but not as good as rakeback for a lot of people.

baudib1 said:
19/16 is definitely nitty at the stakes he was playing.

Yes, F Paulsson is one of my heroes and anything he says (about poker) I tend to take as gospel anyway. Wonder how old his "baby" is now. Does he ever post here these days?

KerouacsDog · Nov 14, 2011

F4STFORW4RD said:
Yes, as usual you're right. Actually I tried tightening up yesterday and playing more tables, but it didn't last very long. Firstly it's a lot less fun, secondly people stopped paying off my big hands. So I just ended up playing more tables but not tightening up.

Thanks yes, it's a great thread. My rodgy podgy (NoWuckingFurries) had already shown me that thread previously. To somebody that has only played FR it seems odd to hear somebody that had stats of 19/16 describing themselves as a nit.

Im sorry, your what?

WVHillbilly · Nov 14, 2011

FF is the wife of longtime CC member NWF.

mrmonkey · Nov 14, 2011

F4STFORW4RD said:
FWIW I don't agree with this, especially not for tournament players. FT were paying 27% rakeback for any level of play, so my hubby could quite happily play 25c SNGs and would receive 27% of the rake back. At PS you are a bronze star (i.e. no rewards except for a few FPPs) until you can hit 750 VPP per month. 750 VPP equates to a LOT of 25c SNGs. So PS is fine if you are doing high volumes, but not as good as rakeback for a lot of people.

I would certainly agree that the amount or percentage of rakeback in the bottom VIP levels is very low in comparison to other sites offering a flat ~30+%, but to make a blanket statement that "PokerStars has no rakeback" is a little misleading. Particularly when, in answer to your original question, "rakeback" or VIP bonuses is basically the reason why a 4/4 or less nit strategy can be somewhat profitable when massive multitabling 2nl.

I found a cash game rakeback equivalent list by googling a bit, and you can see it here (I think this was calculated for 6-max cash ring games):

BronzeStar = 12.3% rakeback
SilverStar = 18.5%
GoldStar = 25%
PlatinumStar = 30.7%
SuperNova = 36.9%
SuperNova Elite = 43%

So while the equivalent of 12.3% rakeback is low, it is still a cut of the rake. For anyone at Platinum or above, PokerStars equivalent rakeback is even better than anything that used to be offered at Full Tilt, including the black card promotion.

No, PokerStars does not offer "rakeback" in the traditional sense, nor is their VIP program very rewarding for low volume/low rake players -- but you can't just say they don't offer any form of rakeback and leave it at that.

KerouacsDog · Nov 14, 2011

alaskabill said:
If you want to read something constructive about playing a tight range (a lot more than vpip 4 though) Here is a great post from the golden archives.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/a-nits-apology-why-tight-right-154124/

thats an epic post by FP, as usual. thanks AB for the link.

F4STFORW4RD · Nov 14, 2011

KerouacsDog said:
Im sorry, your what?

husband

How do mega-nitty players make money

JusSumguy

Chipmonger

AAChipMagnet

Visionary

F4STFORW4RD

Visionary

F4STFORW4RD

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alaskabill

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KerouacsDog

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only_bridge

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F4STFORW4RD

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WVHillbilly

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alaskabill

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F4STFORW4RD

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KoRnholio

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F4STFORW4RD

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WVHillbilly

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KoRnholio

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F4STFORW4RD

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mrmonkey

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baudib1

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