KK on the flop... How would you play it?

You can bet that I'm betting here. Why wouldn't you? Trapping? har har….Let him just get there and then fold? I guess that's an option....

Bet, bet and keep betting until he raises and you pause to contemplate whether he has 2 pair or the straight.

AT, KT, QT, JT, may very well pay you the whole way and not beat you.

Good luck !

I think that you have a clear bet in this spot, somewhere between 1/2-3/4 of the pot. You want to get value for your KK and charge your opponent to draw if they have a straight draw or an ace in their hand. When the turn brings another straight card, you may consider slowing down if your opponent leads out.

If you get check raised on this flop, then you have a decision to make. On this board texture when you get check raised, you will either be facing a set or something like top pair with an open ended straight draw.

Either way I feel like making a medium large bet on this flop is best.

Interesting hand, thanks for sharing!
As others have suggested, I would bet ~1/3p on the flop. Facing a c/r, I would call and evaluate the turn. A 'reasonable' range of hands that would call a 3b preflop OOP, and c/r this flop would be:
99+,QJs,T9s
Against this range, it is almost a literal flip; 49.48/50.52 in their favor.
It is likely they don't have KK+ and removing these hands makes it ~59/41 in your favor. Could also consider including 88 in their range, although this seems a bit loose preflop and on the flop.
If you call their c/r, the pot will be 0.39 + 0.77 + 0.77 = 1.93. The effective stack would be 1.23, so about 67% of the pot. On the turn, if they check I think you can safely shove for less than pot. If they lead shove, it depends on what the turn is. If the turn is 2 - 7, call. If its an 8, fold. 9/T are close, and I'm not sure, perhaps 50/50 between call and fold. J, Q, K, A call.

Just my opinion, interested to see results.
-vulpix.

I have the questions to all of you who choose 1/3 bet. Do you even know why do people tend to bet 1/3 nowadays in many spots? and why do you choose 1/3 bet sizingi if you decided to bet? what's an idea to choose that sizing in that spot? Do you play your entire range choosing that sizing? do you bet AKs here too with 1/3? or you just check/fold it even with backdoors? etc. etc.

guys it's nl2. you complicate your life too much. if you don't want to see a raise then choose check/call line. If you want to bet because you think you have a valuebet and because it's nl2 then mostly you have a valuebet then choose the bet. But not 1/3. I would choose definitely 1/2-2/3 sizing here on tight ranges. If he will raise you then I would consider a fold without an info, but most of the time just bet bet bet on safe cards. Easy game, easy gameplan on the lowest poker limit.

Misaki said:

I have the questions to all of you who choose 1/3 bet. Do you even know why do people tend to bet 1/3 nowadays in many spots? and why do you choose 1/3 bet sizingi if you decided to bet? what's an idea to choose that sizing in that spot? Do you play your entire range choosing that sizing? do you bet AKs here too with 1/3? or you just check/fold it even with backdoors? etc. etc.

guys it's nl2. you complicate your life too much. if you don't want to see a raise then choose check/call line. If you want to bet because you think you have a valuebet and because it's nl2 then mostly you have a valuebet then choose the bet. But not 1/3. I would choose definitely 1/2-2/3 sizing here on tight ranges. If he will raise you then I would consider a fold without an info, but most of the time just bet bet bet on safe cards. Easy game, easy gameplan on the lowest poker limit.

Click to expand...

I would guess that people likely use that sizing because
1) The solver said so
2) They saw successful players doing it

I chose 1/3p because:
1) given my experience in similar spots, it 'seems to work'
2) keeps ranges wide, and folds out a decent chunk of their range, while risking the least
3) nicely sets up a bet/bet/shove line, can shove for a pot sized bet on river, when sized properly.

So, that's my idea on why I use it. You could pot the flop, and shove the turn for about a pot sized bet, sure. It is not clear which is better, but both seem fine. In 3b pots depending on the board, I tend to use smaller sizings, because ranges are usually fairly polarized. With that being said, developing 'good habits', even at the lower limits, will help as you move up.

-vulpix

Vulpix said:

I would guess that people likely use that sizing because
1) The solver said so
2) They saw successful players doing it

Click to expand...

on micro I guess no ones uses solvers and if they do they harms their game. So I guess correct answer is 2nd answer. They saw players on HIGHER limits making it.

Vulpix said:

I chose 1/3p because:
1) given my experience in similar spots, it 'seems to work'
2) keeps ranges wide, and folds out a decent chunk of their range, while risking the least
3) nicely sets up a bet/bet/shove line, can shove for a pot sized bet on river, when sized properly.

So, that's my idea on why I use it. You could pot the flop, and shove the turn for about a pot sized bet, sure. It is not clear which is better, but both seem fine. In 3b pots depending on the board, I tend to use smaller sizings, because ranges are usually fairly polarized. With that being said, developing 'good habits', even at the lower limits, will help as you move up.

Click to expand...

ye I get your point and I believe it can work but still I prefer to protect my hand with normal bet sizing because ranges are tight so it's not like that you keep the ranges wide. Because you probably get a call from same range using 33% and 50%. Sometimes you can get calls from hands like AQs with backdoors but that's really small part of villains range.
I disagree with your 2nd point about risking less. So why do you 3bet KK if you think about risking money but not earning money? and you think about folding some hands in villains range but not about extracting value?
3rd point is ok but most of the people call twice anyway so if they call they are most of the time just behind vs your kings so you earn less, because you decided to choose smaller sizings.

Anyway if some of you choose 1/3bet because vs a raise you have a hard spot and you can call a raise at least once so don't you realize that you are burning money? ranges are tight, people on micro are very honest with their ranges in 3bet pots and if you call a raise you have no clue where you at. what do you do on total blank? still call turn bet? when mostly you are behind? because on some scary cards you fold anyway. It would be just better to broke the flop than calling a raise. Of course you can keep villain's bluff but how many does he have there on tight ranges? almost none unless you play with a spazzer. That's why I would decide to bet myself and make my decision more easy. just by choosing bigger sizing than 1/3 and fold vs aggression unless I know villain can choose to ship hands here like JJ, QQ.

or just choose check/call line what would be ok too. But on nl2 I prefer to bet.

I am sure about wrongest move - slowplay. LJ can have straight-draw so we should avoid to see turn. So bet should be not small (1-3bb will be called by him) and not all-in because we are not crazy. Semi-pot is a little dangerous (0.20$) but after this bet LJ call only with AA or three of a kind. I would bet 0.15$

bet 65-70%

So first of all, its a 1ct/2ct game, which means throw hand reading out of the window. Calling a 3bet OOP is a donk move, but in those stakes they are not even thinking about that.

So Villains preflop range is probably 22+, A2o+, A2s+, KT+, QT+, JT+, ....

You 3bet your KK, which is correct and villain is making more of an ego call aka "I dont let this guy push me off my hand" move, which happens pretty often.


So in these games it's important to remember that it's very often a way ahead, way behind scenario in which hero only has an overpair and 2 outs.

So it doesn't make sense to bet big on the flop. If he has nothing, he will also fold to a small bet, if he has it, hero will lose a lot.

So 1/3 pot is the best option here and betting 3/4 pot would be a massive mistake.

I hate to say it, but IMO your hand is dead after he check raised you. He either hit a set, two pair with T9. I don't see a lot of x/r bluffing in microstakes, especially not in 3bet pots.

A call would let me think overpair, TP...but a x/r for this kind of size?
It depends on reads what I would do here. If villain was a fish, I'd call, because there is so much trash in his range and he would also "defend ATo" here.Against a reg, I'd just fold.



A word about betting for "protection": It's bullshit. You bet to fold out better hands, get called by worse hands and bloat the pot when you have the goods.

When you bet big in this scenario, only better hands will call and worse hands will fold...not what you want.

Spewster said:

A word about betting for "protection": It's bullshit. You bet to fold out better hands, get called by worse hands and bloat the pot when you have the goods.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure poker is so simple or black/white. You only ever take an action because it is +EV; if you are clever enough, you can find the set of actions that is 'optimal'. Not all bets can be viewed as 'value' or 'bluff'; there is a grey area, especially before the river when equities have not been realized. This is relevant in the concept of 'range merging'.
gl
-vulpix

Spewster said:

So first of all, its a 1ct/2ct game, which means throw hand reading out of the window.

So Villains preflop range is probably 22+, A2o+, A2s+, KT+, QT+, JT+, ....

Click to expand...

so we read the hands or not?

Spewster said:

Calling a 3bet OOP is a donk move

Click to expand...

seriously?

it's like thinking from 2010.

I'm just saying that the concept of betting to protect your hand is complete bullshit, because it implies that you know that villain is on a draw.

We're not in 2000 anymore where we put villain on a hand. What does your protective 3/4 pot bet do against JJ? What does it do against QQ, AT, JTs, 77, 99, TT?

So you see, you're not protecting anything here. The only thing you accomplish on this flop is folding out the junk you want calls from for value. The hands that beat you will call.


You have to remember that every single one of your actions will split villains range. So imagine how his range will look like after a 3/4 pot bet vs his range after 1/3pot or even 1/4pot bet.


If you bet 1/3 you'll keep the junk in his range and he will probably raise the hands that beat us anyways. So the risk/reward is better with 1/3 and that's what it's all about.


I'm not even talking +EV or GTO stuff here, it's just common sense, it's just how much will you lose when you lose vs. how much you will win when you win.
And this is much easier in 3bet pots.

You don't need to think about river decisions since SPR is so low that the hand is decided on the flop or all the money goes in on the turn anyways.

This hand would be much more tricky in a single raised pot, e.g. hero raises KK in CO and villain calls in the BTN

Misaki said:

so we read the hands or not?



seriously?

it's like thinking from 2010.

Click to expand...

Dude, if this was 50NL you could put villain on a range you could work with on this flop. Would villain call J8s in this spot when he knows what he's doing? Probably not.

Would I eliminate J8s from villains range in this spot in a 2NL game, definitely not.
So if you want to apply book knowledge, go ahead.

About calling 3bets OOP...my range is probably 5% for that, aka. KQs, AQo, QQ-88 and very dependend on villain. Everything else is 4bet or fold. So I wonder why people never ever read the very first line of the hand history. It says $0.01/$0.02 NLHE 6-Max 6 player

And guess what? In 6max micros where still a lot of people come over to tilt of the rest of their sports betting stacks, they don't even know what position means. So yes, donk move...definitely donk move.


Different story with reads on opponent, but without reads, you can always asume villain is a fish in 2NL, meaning you bet for value and fold to raises. Period.

Spewster said:

Dude, if this was 50NL you could put villain on a range you could work with on this flop. Would villain call J8s in this spot when he knows what he's doing? Probably not.

Would I eliminate J8s from villains range in this spot in a 2NL game, definitely not.

Click to expand...

so you are saying that villain there is a full of hands which should fold preflop as you mentioned J8s (what I can agree that people make many preflop mistakes and call hands which should be in fold range) and you still want to bet 1/3? if they have a lot of hands which includes Tx, 9x then you want to maximize value from them! you guys think only about not losing much. You have some wrong thinking. If some guy have ATs here I want to get his money as fast as possible. If he raises me I don't really care and fold my Kings. Simple gameplan. I agree that we are not huge favourite here. Probably it would be like 60-40% but still we are ahead and if villain wants to pay with his TP, 2nd pairs, some pairs+draws, or just only draws KJs, KQs I want to use bigger sizing, because it's nl2, and for them most of the time sizing doesn't matter if they want to call.
I would even prefer to check than bet 1/3 if we think that guy on EP is pretty tight because I don't want to get a raise and still could easily call once or two and at least give him a chance to bluff some hands like AQs, AJs etc.

Spewster said:

About calling 3bets OOP...my range is probably 5% for that, aka. KQs, AQo, QQ-88 and very dependend on villain.

Click to expand...

are you talking about calling range on EP vs 3bet BU or overall? if overall, because you mentioned AQo (on EP it could be 4bet/bluff because I can't imagine that you could lose less with it than 300bb/100 by calling to 3bet on EP vs 3bet BU) here then I have to say you clearly need to improve your game. Because you have no idea how to defend your ranges and I guess you overfold to 3bets.

Spewster said:

So if you want to apply book knowledge, go ahead.

Click to expand...

books are bad.

At 1/2c table .... bet 80% of pot...im expecting fold or chk raise...no slow play

if raised im shipping as im not up against AA here as that gets shipped pre.....

if a set fair enough but likelyhood is a single pair or an over/under pair to the board or pure guff.

lets get the money in😁😁😁😁

Here is what hero did:

LJ checks, Hero raises to $0.25, LJ raises to $0.77, Hero raises to $2.04, LJ calls all in

Turn 6:heart:

River 4:spade:

LJ shows A:diamond: A:club: One pair Aces
Hero shows K:diamond: K:club: One Pair Kings

Suggestion, maybe next time give us last question after all action and ask us to define his range?

I vote for QQ ;P

Thank you for your effort in this series. It really helps to get inside of thinking process of others. I still don't quite get the thinking process leading to 1/3 bet. I mean do we bait him to raise? But we don't have any information on him, so that is too fancy.

Yea I should of done "Villain won, but what was he/she holding?"

I would bet 3/4 of the pot.

BET 2/3POT. everything is fine with an overpair in 3bet pot

If I considered the villain to be a tag player I would bet 3/4 to full pot to protect my hand against draws . But if he's loose or wild you risk him reraising you with a draw so if that was the case then I would bet 1/2 pot . Good luck .

There's more turn cards you don't want to see then you'd like to see. I'd CB around 2/3 if I find villain to be a call station or they were LAG and about 40% if they were on the tighter side.

Well in my personal opinion ;D I would bet 23 cents on the flop after he checked it to me the board is very wet T 9 7 and much of the range of my opponent is A10+ j10s,QJs,KJs,55+ and most of that range is pair plus a draw or open ended.If my opponent did reraise me(especially in microstakes) he could definitely want to do it with J10,A10, QJ,JJ,QQ, where id be a favorite as with losing he could have 1010,AA,99,77. If I did get reraised Id prolly donk it off on the flop here everytime. My other choice would be to check and see the turn to see if an 8 or a J hits and if not hope he bluffs on any other card that falls and raise decently on the turn about 60% pot.What that does is kills his 77 99 1010 hands into not wanting to call creating a good fold equity spot. Pokers a game of many options I don't think I have a certain way I'd play any hand when I really think about it.Poker really is a complex game.

Honestly in a 0.06 cents pot who cares what cards you have,or what they have might as well just run the cards out and see who wins.