Live Grind: How to Fall Asleep at the Table (Without Getting Caught)

Well, I did it again. Tried to write something about something or other. Go read, if you dare -> https://www.cardschat.com/forum/gen...ramblings-causality-poker-240389/#post2300196

Not gonna give HA since i'm WB. But seems you're thinking really well lately. So wtg! And nice bluffcatch with the 76 hand . Keep em comin, even though i'm not commenting atm I am enjoying it nonetheless.

(Part of the reason I don't comment is because by the time I get through a gargantuan post i'm all worn out and need a nap!)

Scourrge said:

This player was significantly better than the average 1/2 player. He was reading hands to some degree, but was usually on level 2 at best. Thus some bluffs that repped almost nothing. The other villain and I were repping weakness in this spot (we both WERE weak), and the main villain picked up on that. But he wasn't thinking about what he repped - just that everyone else looked weak.

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This is the lightbulb moment, i know these spots. WP! In your exp, in these situations, do you think there is also a bet sizing tell that lines up with your read? Or is that largely incidental? As in - it's never/rarely a big bet/shove, you've read that villain is correctly reading table as weak, and his bet feels like a bluff / stab - (more so than a thin-value bet) like 45% to 55% of the pot or thereabouts? I guess the bet size is far less critical than the other analysis you'll have done in the hand, but it often seems to line up nicely.

5x! Not even a busted draw with a 5! Lol, i think he has watched too much TV then

Oh no, you've written another novel. I'll have to go read it then

Blobweird123 said:

Not gonna give HA since i'm WB. But seems you're thinking really well lately. So wtg! And nice bluffcatch with the 76 hand . Keep em comin, even though i'm not commenting atm I am enjoying it nonetheless.

(Part of the reason I don't comment is because by the time I get through a gargantuan post i'm all worn out and need a nap!)

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Hah thanks blob. I appreciate it even if you need naps just to get through - I'm glad you still get through it

stately7 said:

This is the lightbulb moment, i know these spots. WP! In your exp, in these situations, do you think there is also a bet sizing tell that lines up with your read? Or is that largely incidental? As in - it's never/rarely a big bet/shove, you've read that villain is correctly reading table as weak, and his bet feels like a bluff / stab - (more so than a thin-value bet) like 45% to 55% of the pot or thereabouts? I guess the bet size is far less critical than the other analysis you'll have done in the hand, but it often seems to line up nicely.

5x! Not even a busted draw with a 5! Lol, i think he has watched too much TV then

Oh no, you've written another novel. I'll have to go read it then

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That's a tricky question imo. Some players absolutely have very serious bet-sizing tells, but I don't think they were all that present with this player. Most of his bets were pot-appropriate, in that he's not betting $10, then $15, then $20 on consecutive streets as the pot swells. And he wasn't obviously betting tiny with bluffs and big with value or vice versa. Not saying that doesn't happen, but I don't normally see it so pronounced.

OK cool, thanks for answering - was curious, as sometimes the bet sizing factors into my decision to "bluff-catch", but it is usually not the deciding factor.

In almost every case, the betting line is the main factor. Bet-sizing is a part of this, but most players are at least semi-consistent, though picking up on the nuances more frequently is something I'm looking to try to do.

Preflop:
5 limpers to me, I'm in the SB and pop it to $15... 4 callers.


Flop: ($70) (5 players)
I mis-calculate the pot size as $60, and based on that make it $40 to go. The BB calls, as well as a BTN limper.

Not much clue how BB is playing, but he seems loose passive primarily. I would have heard from him on the flop if I was behind. He can have Jx, draws, combo draws. The BTN is pretty loose, and aggro both preflop and post. His range is probably similar to BB's in nature, but wider.


Turn: ($190) (3 players)
I bet $70, this time not quite on my A game and no explicitly calculating the size of the pot. My stack size is a little bit awkward, and I leave myself with $160 after betting $70. BB thinks a few moments and folds. The BTN tanks for quite a while, asks how much I have behind, tanks a bit more, and calls.

At this point, I think I'm so far ahead it's not even funny. He seemed weak, and clearly had to really talk himself into a call. I decide in advance that I'm going to x/c any non-club river, and possibly even club rivers, depending on reads.


River: ($330) (3 players)
I tank for a few moments, and check. Villain thinks for a few seconds, and with exaggerated strength, leans forward with a stack of 20 red chips in each hand, and puts them forcefully very far in front of him. Based on both my read earlier in the hand, and based on his nonverbal behavior now (particularly the choice to forcefully put out two full stacks of $100), I call.

Before we get to the river feedback and the villain tells, it's really the Turn sizing that should be around $125 to $150 (as you say you'd have done this in a different headspace, and probably fold out draws). As played, villain action on River is definitely suspect, so in that light, i think the call is correct. Scary but correct. If you're right, I expect to see AJ a lot with his action. Or busted FDs where the aggro bluffs at the K scare card. If he has KJ, good luck to him eh? You would have heard from J10 a lot sooner.

K well my thoughts are:

I'm sizing bigger pre to $20 definitely. On flop 3-way I go around 3/4 pot *but seeing as you messed up pot size, i'm sure you're aware .

Now I think after both call on the flop, it must be draws/top pair hands as you said. We are going to hear from JT/JJ/TT almost always on this flop. So with that said I think we need to go bigger on the turn for sure and look to get stacks in.

On the river I dunno. I mean the two hands i'm worried about that are still well within his range is KJ/KQ. With that said, it'd be good to know any reads as to if they limp/overlimp hands like this ever? If the answer is no, i'm snap calling for sure.

Weird hand, but only made weird by our sizing throughout I think.

stately7 said:

Before we get to the river feedback and the villain tells, it's really the Turn sizing that should be around $125 to $150 (as you say you'd have done this in a different headspace, and probably fold out draws). As played, villain action on River is definitely suspect, so in that light, i think the call is correct. Scary but correct. If you're right, I expect to see AJ a lot with his action. Or busted FDs where the aggro bluffs at the K scare card. If he has KJ, good luck to him eh? You would have heard from J10 a lot sooner.

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Doubt AJ is turning his hand into a bluff here with decent SDV.

Blobweird123 said:

Doubt AJ is turning his hand into a bluff here with decent SDV.

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Oh yeah good point. Have to be pretty bad/aggro to do that you're right, but if he senses weakness around that K. And yeah - also agree with you - KQ is also the worry along with KJ.

stately7 said:

Oh yeah good point. Have to be pretty bad/aggro to do that you're right, but if he senses weakness around that K. And yeah - also agree with you - KQ is also the worry along with KJ.

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Yeah but again, if he senses weakness then why bluff? He has SDV vs weak hands. And he's not gonna get looked up by worse.

Because of the awkward stack size, I think you should shove turn. The pot is $190, so it wouldn't really be a bad overbet. Plus, what reasonable amount could you bet on the turn that would leave you with a non-awkward stack on the river?

Blobweird123 said:

Yeah but again, if he senses weakness then why bluff? He has SDV vs weak hands. And he's not gonna get looked up by worse.

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Yep, yep. Argh, will await outcome!

Scourrge said:

Preflop:
5 limpers to me, I'm in the SB and pop it to $15... 4 callers.


Flop: ($70) (5 players)
I mis-calculate the pot size as $60, and based on that make it $40 to go. The BB calls, as well as a BTN limper.

Not much clue how BB is playing, but he seems loose passive primarily. I would have heard from him on the flop if I was behind. He can have Jx, draws, combo draws. The BTN is pretty loose, and aggro both preflop and post. His range is probably similar to BB's in nature, but wider.


Turn: ($190) (3 players)
I bet $70, this time not quite on my A game and no explicitly calculating the size of the pot. My stack size is a little bit awkward, and I leave myself with $160 after betting $70. BB thinks a few moments and folds. The BTN tanks for quite a while, asks how much I have behind, tanks a bit more, and calls.

At this point, I think I'm so far ahead it's not even funny. He seemed weak, and clearly had to really talk himself into a call. I decide in advance that I'm going to x/c any non-club river, and possibly even club rivers, depending on reads.


River: ($330) (3 players)
I tank for a few moments, and check. Villain thinks for a few seconds, and with exaggerated strength, leans forward with a stack of 20 red chips in each hand, and puts them forcefully very far in front of him. Based on both my read earlier in the hand, and based on his nonverbal behavior now (particularly the choice to forcefully put out two full stacks of $100), I call.

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Edit: may also raise bigger pre, something like 20$ tbh

Ship turn, 230$ ----> 190$.

As played, looks fine. We allow him to fire his air. I know some times he's going to roll over Jx and we miss value, but I think a lot of times he just folds Jx to a river shove anyways, so I'm not sure how often we value him. In addition, if he has something like KK (rare) or a ridiculous K10/KJ/1010 we pay him off but I think that's such a small % it really doesn't matter.

Also, I cry if he rolls over KJ but cawl anyways. He can show us KQ sometimes, but I'd be surprised if a reg 1/2 villain is able to effectively value bet top pair here. I think most villains will just check it down for SDV, especially in a pot this big.

Okay. Yeah. I'm actually kind of annoyed (results-oriented), because if I'd sized flop bigger, to like $50, and they both called, it's a super easy turn-jam for value.

So, I call pretty quickly - not a snap, but quickly - and villain shifts uncomfortably in his chair and goes, "I have a king..." I don't say anything and just look over at him, waiting for him to show. He finally turns over K9o. I was fuming.

I did turn over my hand, and at that point I think he realized that that was my plan the whole time, and I think he actually felt a little foolish. He said he was calling the turn so he could bluff any river card if I checked, and he thought that a K wasn't any good for him (he put me on KK/AA appaz). He said he thought a Q was his only real out lol...

Other guy claimed to have folded Jx OTT, but I'm trying to think what Jx he can even have, since I block QJ so heavily, and I highly doubt he finds a fold with KJ or AJ (and KJ is also blocked). It's certainly possible he calls with like J9s pre and calls the flop I guess, even though he's drawing almost dead to my bet-flop range lol.

I wouldn't say this hand quite "gave me nightmares," but it's just absolutely appalling to realize that on virtually any other river (technically he had 5 outs), I'm doubling through this guy up to a stack of almost $700 (doubling through the guy, plus the money put in by everyone else). And then I probably don't misplay my last hand of the day either, and don't lose another $150. Not gonna give full description, but I start hand with $150, UTG makes it $4, 3 callers to me, I make it $20 with AKss, only UTG calls. I flop the NFD on J42, bet $30, he makes it $100, and I just rage-jam it in.

He snap called with 22, and I bricked nine outs twice. It's a slight losing play to not just fold the flop, and tbh I'm pretty sure if I'm in a better state of mind I just find a fold there. Pretty sick that he stays in there with 22 after pre, since he's not even getting 10:1 implied odds (he might be with dead money, but it's close), and then he just casually gets one of the only flops I'm willing to stack on.

Sorry for slightly whiney post, but that session really hurt. For one thing, the table was SUPER juicy (on a Tuesday night, for goodness' sake!), and on the other, I lost $450 in an hour and a half. I'd had 5 winning sessions in a row, but they only totaled about +$550, so that's like 40-50 hours of solid-play down the toilet. It also just really hurts to come so close to being in the black for the first time in like 30 sessions, and not be able to do it.

I know, from a mental standpoint, that results aren't really the best way to analyze my play. I also know, from a mental standpoint, that objectively I'm playing the best live poker of my life. And while that feels good in and of itself, it's hard to just get hammered to death over and over. I'm not losing confidence in my game semi-immediately the way I used to, but I guess I'm just not that great at handling stats that looks like this:

Winning session %: 5/6
Profits: $100

Such a gross river.

Keep your head up, Scourrge. Poker is just a sick, relentless game with no concern for justice. It'll beat you to the ground and kick you when you are down. Just remember how long it takes to realize a semi-accurate win rate. I could show you my graph/session log/stats from the past few weeks to make you feel better, but I might puke in my mouth a little.

On the bright side, at least you're not a regular 1/2 fish who is oblivious to his mistakes and continues to make them every day.

Thanks Sand. It's so funny how I've come so far with my mental game, and yet I still have nights last night that still really rock me. I would have been devastated way more by that a year ago.

Silly moment of realization: This morning I was riffling through some CC threads, and came across one saying something along the lines of "bad beats over and over again... AND IT SEEMS I CAN USUALLY PREDICT THEM."

I actually laughed out loud. It just seemed so ridiculous! And then I realized that the way I was thinking about last night's session was almost as ridiculous. I may not be claiming to be able to PREDICT bad beats, but letting them affect me this way is just outrageous. Beats are going to happen. It's part of poker. And that particular spot was even more silly than I thought, too: It was even MORE a correct play, really. If you think about his range vs. my range on that river, QQ is actually the only hand he beats. My entire range is TT+, and like maybe KQcc. He's behind literally all of it but QQ, and yet he was going to jam (when I KNEW I was planning to call).

Basically, just writing this all out to reinforce it in my head, and remind myself that I'm not just crazy. Shit happens. But shit is going to happen for as long as I play poker. I plan for that to be a long time, so I may as well try to get used to it.

Yea man shit happens, you will recoup all that EV at some point, just remember what could have happened had your game not improved from where it was a while. Downers are just learning opportunities

I wonder how many long time pros still tilt. It has to be more than one would imagine. Poker is one of the only games where you can play absolutely flawlessly for an extended period of time and get destroyed by the results. It'd be amazing if even any slightly competitive person can truly overcome tilt in his or her lifetime.

Mr Sandbag said:

I wonder how many long time pros still tilt. It has to be more than one would imagine. Poker is one of the only games where you can play absolutely flawlessly for an extended period of time and get destroyed by the results. It'd be amazing if even any slightly competitive person can truly overcome tilt in his or her lifetime.

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That's not really true tho, variance is everywhere. look at professional athletes who get injuries/land on bad teams/ get stuck behind
The superstar who has a weak team, the brilliant invention that can't get funding, the boss who won't promote you. Getting let go from work due to arbitrary reasons. Etc etc etc, in terms of actual games, monopoly, backgammon, (pretty much any board game)

Good point. I guess I was thinking mostly of the other games I play/watch.

But I guess DrunkQuest has a ton of variance...

Variance is a Beatch man! Just keep on grinding man. You can do this Scourrge!!

Oh man, yeah relate to all this. Long, long live sessions where I know I'm playing really really well compared to the table, and I somehow leave like $55 up or $85 down just thinking - what the f**k was that? It's one thing to play for hours in the zone with clear thinking, zen-like patience, but then to somehow continue in that zone after a hand that just rocks you to the core. Man, that is tough. We're playing ourselves really aren't we.

I was feeling sort of meh this morning, and skipped my first class, then woke up feeling, and just decided to take a day for myself. Started out as just relaxing, then decided to go to the casino since there were WAY more tables running than I would have thought.

Was on a pretty soft table to start, but just couldn't get anything going. I had a frustrating spot where I flopped a straight in a single-raised pot. It was a VERY wet board, flush draw possible. The PFR led for $12, which was approximately 1/4 pot. Next to act made it $55. I just went all in, because I figured it was pretty likely the raiser had a set, two pair, or combo draw with a fair bit of equity (but not as much as he expected). Frustratingly, both of them folded. Nice pot, but not as much as I was anticipating. I was down about $100 when this hand came up:


Preflop:
1 limper to me and I isolate to $12 in the HJ. This is something I've been doing more and more. While JTs plays well in position in multiway pots, I've found that having the betting lead is far more important and lets me pick up more pots uncontested on the flop. Isolating from the CO and even HJ can be so powerful because on the right tables I can usually "steal" the button. In this spot though, the button calls, as does the BB. The limper folds.


Flop: ($35) (3 players)
This is a pretty good flop for my hand, given that the isolation didn't work out as I'd hoped. The BB checks to me, and I bet $21. The button calls, and the BB folds.

I've not played much with the BB, but he was on my table a few sessions ago. I think he actually has tourette's or something, because he mutters what sounds like "****" under his breath pretty frequently. Aside from this, he doesn't talk at the table, and strikes me as super mild-mannered. Kind of in line with this, he plays pretty damn snug preflop, though I've not seen him in many pots postflop. My impression of his range at this point was that I was probably still ahead of his range, but only barely, and crushed a decent portion too.

Turn: ($75) (2 players)
Not a bad turn card for me. At this point, I feel like villain may check it back a good portion of the time, or might bet way too small, so I check, planning to call a reasonably-sized bet with my pair + OESD. I check, and villain quickly goes all in. The total is $117. I nearly snap-call. It just looks so much to me like villain wants a fold. And frankly, I look like I'm not going to call. I've continuation bet, and then checked a relatively blank turn (QT gets there, I suppose). I call, and we go to the river.

River: ($210) (3 players)
I'm not sure how to feel about the river. It brings in a 3rd heart, but I'm not sure how many heart draws villain can really have. It brings me a straight, but I hadn't thought I needed one to be good, anyway. "I've got a straight," I say, and turn my hand over.

My thoughts were clarified when villain turned over KTo for just one over and the same OESD as me. Granted, a Q would have given him the best of it, but it was frustrating to make a perfect read, a perfect call, and then not get paid off. But I suppose it was better than getting owned for the whole pot, too.


I also ended up playing the $200 bounty tourney. I know, I know, I said I'd be done with that. But it was a $10k gtd, and I actually think the bounty tourney has the least variance. Even though it's more expensive, the fact that you can win bounties curbs the variance associated with going deep and then not cashing.

I played very well, and chipped up pretty far early. I had 4-5x the average stack for a while, then went extremely card dead, with basically no spots available for stealing blinds. Then, with about a 30bb stack, I opened JTss first in for 2.2bb. Everyone folded except for the BB, who called. The flop came QT2cch. He led into me for about 40% pot. I'd never played with this villain, and it struck me as a weird bet. It could be a top pair type hand, a draw type hand, or a "hopefully you missed" type of bet. I opted to call. The turn was the Jc. He led again, for about 30% pot, and I jammed all in for approximately a 60% pot-sized raise. He tanked a little and called.

He had KQ, no clubs, so I was in great shape to double through him (from 2nd biggest stack to being the by-far biggest stack at the table), but the K on the river sent me to the rail. Again, he had a solid 13 outs once, but it was frustrating to get it in SO good post-turn and then just get owned again.

I decided to stick around and play cash, which went relatively well given I was pretty much card-dead for the whole time. I got basically no value hands for the first couple hours, but it was a tight table (Sand was there, ldo), so I was able to steal quite a bit both pre- and post-flop to keep my stack roughly even. Sand ended up leaving, and a little while later a reg who was at my tournament table sat down. This is the same reg who doubled through the aggro-whale from a few sessions back. I haven't been able to analyze his game that much, but most of what I've gathered is that he's tight, he can hand-read fairly well, and he'd probably be someone I should be a little worried about except that he doesn't seem to confront other regs too much. I ended up flush-over-flushing him and doubling through with about a $190 stack, which was nice. I coasted for a long time after that, but ended up winning a few more pots to end my second cash session of the night +$287. Still lost some on the night (approximately $100), but that session was the first session I've won more than a buyin in QUITE some time, so that was nice.

But I gained something else from the session. The reg that I coolered was completely fine when I over-flushed him. And I don't mean he said "nice hand" in a neutral tone. He jokingly said he needed my 6 (I had A6ss, and he could have binked a straight flush with one of my cards), and was completely friendly to me. Not overly friendly. Just the same amount of friendly he would have been if we'd never played a hand. It was like the beat just rolled off him. It didn't touch him - it's like it wasn't even a beat.

It was just poker.

I want to be that calm when facing those situations. I want to emulate this reg, and I don't want to just seem that calm - I want to feel that calm. I obviously still have a lot to work on, but I think I can get there.

Anyway it's late and I'm waking up early tomorrow to go visit my girlfriend (finally, weather permitting, knock on wood etc), so I'm going to go pass out now. Cheers.