Losing value with AA

TheWizardofRozz · Aug 3, 2013

Hello friends. I play 10NL and I'm wondering if I'm losing value by always 4+betting AA/KK preflop. Would it pay to start calling some 3Bets with these hands? Thanks

Aleksei · Aug 3, 2013

You want stacks in preflop at all times with AA, to protect your equity.

With KK you can consider flatting 3bet if you think Villain is not getting it in without QQ+, and for deception sometimes. Plus it saves you some money if an A comes on the flop, because in a 3bet or 4bet pot, an Ace comes off and you're dead.

dresturn2 · Aug 3, 2013

Aleksei said:
You want stacks in preflop at all times with AA, to protect your equity.

With KK you can consider flatting 3bet if you think Villain is not getting it in without QQ+, and for deception sometimes. Plus it saves you some money if an A comes on the flop, because in a 3bet or 4bet pot, an Ace comes off and you're dead.

I completely second this

playtheman · Aug 4, 2013

Aleksei said:
You want stacks in preflop at all times with AA, to protect your equity.

With KK you can consider flatting 3bet if you think Villain is not getting it in without QQ+, and for deception sometimes. Plus it saves you some money if an A comes on the flop, because in a 3bet or 4bet pot, an Ace comes off and you're dead.

The death of many a KK is when they shove on an ace high flop.
you can just feel them kicking themselves.

how do you ensure you get stacks in AA preflop, i mean sometimes ill be in the big blind and the small blind will have ago by 3 betting and then I 4 bet and they fold.

or worse it just gets folded to you, (this really bugs me)

Mr Sandbag · Aug 4, 2013

playtheman said:
The death of many a KK is when they shove on an ace high flop.
you can just feel them kicking themselves.

how do you ensure you get stacks in AA preflop, i mean sometimes ill be in the big blind and the small blind will have ago by 3 betting and then I 4 bet and they fold.

or worse it just gets folded to you, (this really bugs me)

You can't really "ensure" stacks are in the middle preflop. Aleksei just means that you shouldn't shut down at any point preflop until you have nothing left in front of you or your opponents have nothing left. Not to say you should just go all-in immediately, but you should be feeding the action until it makes sense to do so.

If it is folded to you on the button, yeah, it is a bummer, but still you should raise. I've seen so many players limp in with Aces in this situation and end up getting ripped apart by some horrible big blind hand that would have folded to a raise preflop.

playtheman · Aug 4, 2013

Mr Sandbag said:
You can't really "ensure" stacks are in the middle preflop. Aleksei just means that you shouldn't shut down at any point preflop until you have nothing left in front of you or your opponents have nothing left. Not to say you should just go all-in immediately, but you should be feeding the action until it makes sense to do so.

If it is folded to you on the button, yeah, it is a bummer, but still you should raise. I've seen so many players limp in with Aces in this situation and end up getting ripped apart by some horrible big blind hand that would have folded to a raise preflop.

Its great when they limp aa and you check 8 2 from the big blind, and flop 2 pair, this guy gave me abuse for playing the hand. it was so much fun.

you let me see the flop and i hit, imma play it my best,

so kids dont limp AA or any monster ever. its bad play,

unless someone is shoving every hand when people limp, then you can try to trap them

LD1977 · Aug 4, 2013

Yeah there are people who "punish limpers" with ATC and when reraised they can't find the fold button

I love those guys.

4evertilted · Aug 4, 2013

I have limped with AA many many times, but you have to be willing to play them just like any other hand and lay it down. When use to live in Vegas, would play a few events during the wsop, but mostly just play cash games. People would play like idiots in the medium size cash games. (had 21winning sessions in a row one year).

It's my last hand I get AA UTG so i limp and it turns into 6 people limping, flop comes 4,5,6, I check then there is mad action and i just fold, very simple.

Henreiman · Aug 4, 2013

You are not necessarily losing value by only 4-betting AA/KK as long as your range is polarized to include junk when you 4-bet: if it is obvious you are 4-betting only great hands, you are certainly being exploited. I am a huge fan of flatting big pocket pairs heads up in position.

xlmnx · Aug 5, 2013

I dont know about anyone else but KK and QQ are popping up more and more. Like that Tim Hortons SHITT ohh yeahh i get my rocks on. Me and my friends mess around now they say its not worth anything more then value anyways. Check out 99c 11c sportsbook double ups for quick change

Aleksei · Aug 5, 2013

playtheman said:
The death of many a KK is when they shove on an ace high flop.
you can just feel them kicking themselves.

how do you ensure you get stacks in AA preflop, i mean sometimes ill be in the big blind and the small blind will have ago by 3 betting and then I 4 bet and they fold.

or worse it just gets folded to you, (this really bugs me)

There's nothing you can do about that really. Just keep raising until stacks are in, everyone flats or someone folds -- if no one has a hand that will play ball with AA then you're not stacking anyone anyway. Plus the more money is in the pot preflop, the less speculative ranges are postflop and the less likely it is you're coolered.

TylerN · Aug 5, 2013

Aleksei said:
Plus it saves you some money if an A comes on the flop, because in a 3bet or 4bet pot, an Ace comes off and you're dead.

Considering regs 3bet a lot of non Ax hands against us, either polarized or depolarized it doesn't matter, and on a Axx board their going to be cbetting entire range, this isn't true.

Aleksei · Aug 5, 2013

TylerN said:
Considering regs 3bet a lot of non Ax hands against us

Well I did add the caveat that we flat 3bet if Villain isn't getting it in without QQ+. So, the basic assumption is we're up against a nit. vs a normal reg with an uncapped range that includes AK and/or JJ/TT (especially in LP-blind situations), we just try and get stacks in pre.

dgiharris · Aug 5, 2013

Henreiman said:
You are not necessarily losing value by only 4-betting AA/KK as long as your range is polarized to include junk when you 4-bet: if it is obvious you are 4-betting only great hands, you are certainly being exploited. I am a huge fan of flatting big pocket pairs heads up in position.

I could buy this argument for 50NL+, but not 10NL.

There are so many rec fish playing 10NL or 5NL that worried about being "exploited" is unnecessary.

If our villains are willing to shove pre with 99+ hands because they put us on AK then by all means, 4-bet shove away. If our villains are likely to fold everything but KK to a 4-bet preflop then we should be flatting their 3-bets so they retain the initiative and will likely shove 88% of all flops that don't have an Ace...

Basically, for the most part, it's villain dependent. And since so many villains who 3-bet will call a 4-bet we can go ahead and 4-bet most of the time. Just make sure you size your 4-bet so they more or less have to call. If you can get stacks in do it, otherwise, just 4-bet between 1 - 1.5 times the 3-bet amount plus size of the pot.

xlmnx · Aug 8, 2013

I never just bet 3$ i will more often throw out 3.11$ or 3.87$ throwin them lucky numbers out there are the way to go. I think betting by these rules throws off the suttleness of your betting. Changing things up is a good way to realize your value.

Loki · Aug 8, 2013

With your AA you should always be betting. Why not get more value out of the hand if the guy bet you? I mean yeah he can but you on the AA, but by you betting the most likely of chances is that he calls you or raises you again giving you a bigger pot to win. And also, why let him see a flop? I mean let him pay for it if. What if he might of caught? You should almost always bet with aces, unless your planning a check raise, which isn't the case we are talking about.

playtheman · Aug 11, 2013

xlmnx said:
I never just bet 3$ i will more often throw out 3.11$ or 3.87$ throwin them lucky numbers out there are the way to go. I think betting by these rules throws off the suttleness of your betting. Changing things up is a good way to realize your value.

i like bets like 39cent at 4nl or 37 something with an odd number.

betting 4 in 4 nl can also make people fold. its very weird

Taszzman41 · Aug 11, 2013

AA

you can't ensure you just have to play it ....after the flop with no A on board you are a 33 % dog

Lady_Ist · Aug 11, 2013

As for me it depends from your position, from stacks, from your bankroll, from your neighbours mood

Of course it worths to bet if you have AA, but some fishes with 22 or 33 may think they have their best pair and go all in

And if it's their lucky day they easily may have set or even more

So my advice,,,cthink twice

and put your cards on the table at the end

make not so big raises, control situation, but never slow play or check if you has started raising.

Paragon · Aug 15, 2013

Really depends on the player, and your table image. If they are tight, and conservative, you will most likely scare them off with a 4bet. If the player is simply an aggressive fish, just 4bet them and hope they shove on you. Regarding table image, loose players get called more often than not, and if you are tight you should simply call the 3bet.

tiantianchen · Aug 17, 2013

really depends on you opponent's style and your postflop skill level

murrdog · Aug 18, 2013

sometimes when you give people an excuse to play a weak hand the tables can turn....hope some one has a big playable hand....or be resound to the fate of winning a small pot or losing a big one

BigCountryAA · Aug 18, 2013

Nothing like getting destroyed by letting someone in cheap when you have AA. I say you should definitely be 4 betting and trying to get stacks in with it.

Aces2w1n · Aug 19, 2013

1/2 table... Tight image because I wasn't getting any cards so it looks like I play nothing but KK AA ... Which isn't true.... But newayz.

He raises $12 and I raise $24 and he flops a set... I end up walking off calling Argh he had pocket 9's

I probably should've shoved in this circumamstance... At least if he beat me he was getting bad odds for setmining.

Aleksei · Aug 19, 2013

odomazetov said:
Hate AA , yesterday my friend shared a hand with pocket AA losing against 7 2. As i know 7 2 is the worst hand u can have in poker?

72s is playable on the button actually (though just barely so). The worst hands in poker are 72o in a tight dynamic, and 32o in a wide/steal dynamic.

Losing value with AA

TheWizardofRozz

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