Can online poker be beaten without a HUD?

Madmansam · Jan 4, 2011

Do you think playing without a HUD can be profitable in the micros? What about after the lowest levels? Do u think there are any possible advantages to playing without one? Is there any disadvantages(besides the obvious absence of stats) to playing without one?

No Brainer · Jan 4, 2011

I don't think that playing poker online can be more profitable without a HUD than with one.

Can it be beaten? probably yeah, by someone playing 2 tables.

LuckyChippy · Jan 4, 2011

It can be beaten and quite well...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...ance/destroyed-3-6-time-move-up-graph-286574/

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...ag-really-beating-6-max-1000-nl-games-655028/

SN: boywonder. He doesn't use a HUD and has crushed both 600nl and 1knl. And I mean crushed.

ben_rhyno · Jan 4, 2011

Wow Boywonder is totally sick

wolfie · Jan 4, 2011

a hud is just a crutch for weaker players that try to play to many tables

its just a tool to get more info about your opponents stats that might help you to make your decisions on the table, and can be usefull to play more tables at the same time.

also can be usefull to find your weak spots in the games !

i play mostly 3 to 4 tables micro without any help but my notes and make a decent profit, so i not need a hud.

tried one but got to many stats that messed up my results and slowed me down a lot

Madmansam · Jan 4, 2011

Well this is encouraging

Boywonder has quite an impressive chart. Mayb someday.... For the person(people) who voted no, if you are still around, why don't you think it can be beaten?

Stu_Ungar · Jan 4, 2011

You would find it difficult to multitable but sure you can beat online without a HUD

Madmansam · Jan 4, 2011

stubzy11 said:
I don't think that playing poker online can be more profitable without a HUD than with one.

Can it be beaten? probably yeah, by someone playing 2 tables.

I've heard that all pros don't use HUDs, namely Antonius and a few others, and obviously boywonder does ok for himself. What do you think the biggest weakness of a non-HUD using but aware player might be?

Stu_Ungar · Jan 4, 2011

Madmansam said:
I've heard that all pros don't use HUDs, namely Antonius and a few others, and obviously boywonder does ok for himself. What do you think the biggest weakness of a non-HUD using but aware player might be?

They dont use a HUD because they literally play the same 30 people all the time.

Madmansam · Jan 4, 2011

Stu_Ungar said:
You would find it difficult to multitable but sure you can beat online without a HUD

I play six tables and have moved through 2nl and 5nl and recently attempted 10nl but after playing poorly have moved back to 5nl to replenish my bankroll and have been crushing. Up 7 buyins in about 1500 hands. But I digress, I find at 6 tables I can identify the fish who are limping every hand or calling 3bets out of position and the nits who never play. I play kind of LAGy and am in a decent amount of pots and can see how players react to aggression and who the good and bad players are.

Stu_Ungar · Jan 4, 2011

Madmansam said:
I play six tables and have moved through 2nl and 5nl and recently attempted 10nl but after playing poorly have moved back to 5nl to replenish my bankroll and have been crushing. Up 7 buyins in about 1500 hands. But I digress, I find at 6 tables I can identify the fish who are limping every hand or calling 3bets out of position and the nits who never play. I play kind of LAGy and am in a decent amount of pots and can see how players react to aggression and who the good and bad players are.

Dont get a HUD then.

I think you will struggle without, but I dont get commission if you buy one either.

Madmansam · Jan 4, 2011

Stu_Ungar said:
Dont get a HUD then.

I think you will struggle without, but I dont get commission if you buy one either.

Thanks. I do value your opinion. I have read a lot of your posts(I've skimmed through the cash game archives) and you have a lot of great insight and obviously understand the game

Stu_Ungar · Jan 4, 2011

Madmansam said:
Thanks. I do value your opinion. I have read a lot of your posts(I've skimmed through the cash game archives) and you have a lot of great insight and obviously understand the game

Thanks.. your the one who reads them.

The other reason to get a HUD is because online poker communities talk in terms of HUD stats.

If you want feedback, we need stats not vague descriptions.

So it helps you to communicate poker ideas and questions to others.

Madmansam · Jan 4, 2011

Reply to stu ungar

Good point. I do understand the stats do have a limited time membership with ptr so I can check my own stats and adjust. Well I could if they would update my stats. They haven't since nov 23 but I have been playing well and running good except for the limited stay at 10nl. Anyway, I can see how this would be a problem if I wanted to post hand histories or discuss villains with specific stats.

Marginal · Jan 4, 2011

LuckyChippy said:
It can be beaten and quite well...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...ance/destroyed-3-6-time-move-up-graph-286574/

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...ag-really-beating-6-max-1000-nl-games-655028/

SN: boywonder. He doesn't use a HUD and has crushed both 600nl and 1knl. And I mean crushed.

Lol I remember the rumours that he use to play 27/3 or something ridiculous like that. Sick fellow that one.

Dreams of Tragedy · Jan 4, 2011

just ask tom dwan, or best yet randy lew

KoRnholio · Jan 4, 2011

I played for many years on sites that weren't HUD compatible, and I did just fine. Probably even better than most HUDable sites.

I think the reason is simple: No HUDs = less multitabling HUDbot/nits/grinders = more fish.

If you're at all capable of paying attention to the table flow and taking a few notes here and there, a HUD isn't really giving you info you don't already have.

Examples. A player limps Q4o UTG and gets to a showdown. Note: fish. You don't need to know that his exact stats are 64/2/0.4. Same goes for the guy who hasn't played a hand in two orbits, or has never raised in 40+ hands.

tenbob · Jan 4, 2011

Stu_Ungar said:
Thanks.. your the one who reads them.

The other reason to get a HUD is because online poker communities talk in terms of HUD stats.

If you want feedback, we need stats not vague descriptions.

So it helps you to communicate poker ideas and questions to others.

Thats just because players have forgotten where the stats come from in the first place in the vast majority of cases. The HUD stats are a simple by product of what we should be able to see without it if we are playing 6 tables or less.

Have to stop there, baby crying

Stu_Ungar · Jan 4, 2011

tenbob said:
Thats just because players have forgotten where the stats come from in the first place in the vast majority of cases. The HUD stats are a simple by product of what we should be able to see without it if we are playing 6 tables or less.

Have to stop there, baby crying

I know what you are saying but I still think stats are a cleaner way of conveying information on a forum than descriptions, which are going to contain an inherent bias.

c9h13no3 · Jan 4, 2011

A lot of the best nosebleed stakes players don't use HUDs. Its mostly a multi-tabling tool, and when you're playing just 3-4 tables of 6-max or heads up, the HUD becomes kinda silly.

I'm certain that if you're playing 8+ tables, not using a HUD would cost you some of your win rate.

papatango123 · Jan 4, 2011

i play full ring 12 tables at once so its impossible to play without a hud would be impossible to have enough info to beat the game as there is no chance u can remember 108 peoples tendecies. Plus you cant really improve your game without a hud and reflect on your game and how to play against some of the regs at your limit without a hud.

KoRnholio · Jan 4, 2011

papatango123 said:
Plus you cant really improve your game without a hud when playing 10+ tables and reflect on your game and how to play against some of the regs at your limit without a hud.

FYP

Personally, I keep my multitabling pretty low (usually 4-5, 6 max) so that I have time to take notes, think things through properly, make decisions, etc. I think a lot of massive multitabling grinders would gain a lot from cutting down on the number of tables they play at once, if only for a few sessions here and there.

tenbob · Jan 4, 2011

Stu_Ungar said:
I know what you are saying but I still think stats are a cleaner way of conveying information on a forum than descriptions, which are going to contain an inherent bias.

I agree, but stats have a tendancy to be very vague without being overly villian dependant. How many players that play 2 tables exploit you because you are have a VPIP of 20% from MP, because you are playing 20 tables ?

I know i certainly played differently against certain players when i was playing nl$100, most of them were playing 24 tables and didnt have a clue. TBH relying on a HUD if your playing 6 tables or less is a massive leak imo.

Can online poker be beaten without a HUD?

Can online poker be beaten without a HUD?

Yes:

No:

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