Told someone KJ suited is a trash hand and should be folded in the face of a raise.

Foxhound3857 · Apr 12, 2012

This was after I picked off his all-in with QQ in a cash game and doubled my stack (using what was left of my bankroll after the downswing of super turbos). After the hand he said "not cool" to which I replied "KJ is a trash hand when facing a raise, even when suited. You should've folded." He got all defensive and three others backed him up saying that his play was right, that KJ is a great hand, and that I should have dumped my queens.

What?

stg1969 · Apr 12, 2012

We dont know all the circumstances, how much the all in was, stack sizes, position etc... I wouldnt exactly say KJ suited is trash, and also, he shoved with it, its not like he called your allin..
Some may say that your calling an allin with QQ was bad (its not like you knew he has KJ), if someone shoved allin on me, out of position, and I had Queens, i'd have to be thinking AA KK or AK, all of which youre a dog too.

Im not saying that you are wrong mate, just being devils advocate in the absence of full details.

duggs · Apr 12, 2012

any situation where KJ is a shove in cash games, QQ is a snap call

Foxhound3857 · Apr 12, 2012

stg1969 said:
We dont know all the circumstances, how much the all in was, stack sizes, position etc... I wouldnt exactly say KJ suited is trash, and also, he shoved with it, its not like he called your allin..
Some may say that your calling an allin with QQ was bad (its not like you knew he has KJ), if someone shoved allin on me, out of position, and I had Queens, i'd have to be thinking AA KK or AK, all of which youre a dog too.

Im not saying that you are wrong mate, just being devils advocate in the absence of full details.

He was in the BB, I was UTG +2. I flat called hoping to invite one or two others into the pot and it got folded to him. He raised right there, and I came over the top at that point thinking he just wanted to take the pot there and not see a flop. He shoved all-in with his big stack trying to bully me, and I still thought he was weak, so I called. Turns over KJ of clubs and I hit a queen on the flop, shutting him out.

He was the big stack at $20, I was the short stack at $2.50.

stg1969 · Apr 12, 2012

Fair enough, like i said, i wasnt saying you were wrong....

I dont mind the raise by him, but he should have folded to your repop.

Foxhound3857 · Apr 12, 2012

stg1969 said:
Fair enough, like i said, i wasnt saying you were wrong....

I dont mind the raise by him, but he should have folded to your repop.

I had a dead read on him. He COULD have had AA KK or AK, but I don't think he would've raised and reshoved on me if he did, he probably would've waited to make his move after the flop or something. No, I thought he wanted me out of the pot and to not have to play a flop, and I was right.

What I don't get is how he can defend such a play thinking his hand was good, and then three others back him up.

Shufflin · Apr 12, 2012

Unless this is a friend of yours, there is no good reason to try to teach anyone at your table to be a better poker player.

RamdeeBen · Apr 12, 2012

Wow...which table was this at?

A table literally full of players who thinks K,J>Q,Q is only +EV for you and you should be saying all day long, "I agree with you, you're right" and then continue getting your chips in good vs these lot who thinks it's actually bad. Watch your BR grow.

Not sure what the thread means though?

Foxhound3857 · Apr 12, 2012

ramdeebam said:
Wow...which table was this at?

A table literally full of players who thinks K,J>Q,Q is only +EV for you and you should be saying all day long, "I agree with you, you're right" and then continue getting your chips in good vs these lot who thinks it's actually bad. Watch your BR grow.

Not sure what the thread means though?

I wanted to know what everyone else thought about players like that. Cause maybe I'm the one who's wrong.

Arjonius · Apr 12, 2012

If he has AK, it's NP to be all in pre- since you're +EV in that situation, albeit not by much. You're only -EV (although badly) if he has AA or KK. So, one key question is how much more is in his range. The other is the pot odds you're getting when you have to decide whether to call his shove. If most of your stack is already in, it may be mathematically correct to call even if you're sure he has AA or KK.

As for the comments, one of the reasons I almost usually close chat is that most of it is not helpful, including some that can be counter-productive if I pay any attention to it. And I second the comment above about not correcting anyone's misconceptions at the table. It's one thing to help people away from it, e.g. in forums. At the table, your job is to take their money.

WVHillbilly · Apr 12, 2012

You made 2 big mistakes in the hand (possibly 3):

You open limped QQ (HORRIBLE)
You opened your mouth after the hand (WORSE)

Possible 3rd mistake is that you may have had less than a full starting stack since you mention him trying to "bully you with his big stack". If so this mistake is even bigger than the other two. This mistake could also be the reason why your opponent didn't make any mistake at all and had perfectly good odds to call your shove even if you showed him your cards first.

But with just the 1st 2 mistakes it's pretty easy to see why your BR is in the shitter. Get better.

Big_Rudy · Apr 12, 2012

ramdeebam said:
Wow...which table was this at?

A table literally full of players who thinks K,J>Q,Q is only +EV for you and you should be saying all day long, "I agree with you, you're right" and then continue getting your chips in good vs these lot who thinks it's actually bad. Watch your BR grow.

Not sure what the thread means though?

WVHillbilly said:
You made 2 big mistakes in the hand (possibly 3):

You open limped QQ (HORRIBLE)
You opened you mouth after the hand (WORSE)

Possible 3rd mistake is that you may have had less than a full starting stack since you mention him trying to "bully you with his big stack". If so this mistake is even bigger than the other two. This mistake could also be the reason why your opponent didn't make any mistake at all and had perfectly good odds to call your shove even if you showed him your cards first.

But with just the 1st 2 mistakes it's pretty easy to see why your BR is in the shitter. Get better.

^^ This....errmmm. These...ummmm whatever. Why are limping QQ, and in my mind even more importantly WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO EDUCATE YOUR OPPONENTS? So that they can play better and beat you? Ego? Whatever, there is no good reason for it.

While I have no problem trying to help people get better who are actively seeking to through use of forums and such, I have never, and will never, actually try to educate someone while we are actually at the table and they are trying to beat me. What sense is that? Beyond that, they didn't ask for your help, and from the response it got , it certainly wasn't appreciated anyway. Educating the fish while you're trying to beat them should be a clearly -EV move, and you should be able to clearly see that.

jbbb · Apr 12, 2012

Why are you educating them? Let them play how you want, your profit comes from their mistakes.

MediaBLITZ · Apr 12, 2012

WVHillbilly said:
You made 2 big mistakes in the hand (possibly 3): I count 3

You open limped QQ (HORRIBLE)
You opened your mouth after the hand (WORSE)

Possible 3rd mistake is that you may have had less than a full starting stack since you mention him trying to "bully you with his big stack". If so this mistake is even bigger than the other two. This mistake could also be the reason why your opponent didn't make any mistake at all and had perfectly good odds to call your shove even if you showed him your cards first.

But with just the 1st 2 mistakes it's pretty easy to see why your BR is in the shitter. Get better.

1. Not raising PF - this will bite you in the ass more times than not. You do not want to invite a bunch of limpers with suited connectors, small pairs, weak aces, or KJ to square off against your QQ. That is a good way to go from being a dominate favorite to being dominated by the field.

2. Only $2.50 behind - should have reloaded (not a possible mistake - definitely wrong for profitable play). I assume a $10 BI and your operating at 25%. But you are not telling us.

3. Challenging someone on what you think to be questionable play which escalated into challenging the table. You want to reinforce bad play, not bring it to light. You should have said (if anything), "Wow I really donked that and got lucky."

I am not a big fan of KJ but I don't know that this guy's play was as questionable as yours. He certainly did the right thing coming over the top of you PF. And was probably even entirely correct doing it twice (depending on effective stack size) but you leave out a lot of relevant details. How much did he come over the top before you shoved.

WVHillbilly · Apr 12, 2012

Oh didn't even notice that he added the stacks sizes in there. Yeah you're 100% correct, 3 definite mistakes.

OMGITSOVER9K · Apr 12, 2012

haha another Foxhound classic, these are quality.

Foxhound3857 · Apr 12, 2012

WVHillbilly said:
You made 2 big mistakes in the hand (possibly 3):

You open limped QQ (HORRIBLE)
You opened your mouth after the hand (WORSE)

Possible 3rd mistake is that you may have had less than a full starting stack since you mention him trying to "bully you with his big stack". If so this mistake is even bigger than the other two. This mistake could also be the reason why your opponent didn't make any mistake at all and had perfectly good odds to call your shove even if you showed him your cards first.

But with just the 1st 2 mistakes it's pretty easy to see why your BR is in the shitter. Get better.

I didn't shove, he did. He raised, I reraised, and he shoved.

Check your attitude bro. You act like you don't like me, like you have a problem with me, and it's getting old. If you're gonna keep treating me like this I'll go to another forum.

JOEBOB69 · Apr 12, 2012

Cali is that you

Aldito · Apr 12, 2012

Lol @ this thread. Assumed it was livetards arguing with you until I saw you were sitting with $2.50. Why are you even bothering to argue with these cretins?

WVHillbilly · Apr 12, 2012

Foxhound3857 said:
I didn't shove, he did. He raised, I reraised, and he shoved.

Check your attitude bro. You act like you don't like me, like you have a problem with me, and it's getting old. If you're gonna keep treating me like this I'll go to another forum.

Oh sorry misread that part of how horribly you played the hand. You didn't shove but that doesn't change the overall analysis though. You still suck because you open limped (horrible), you were short stacked (that in and of itself makes you a fish, at best, in my book), and then you tried to teach your opponent how to play (incredibly stupid).

As for going to another forum that's always your choice but if you do decide to stay I'll always be here to tell you how bad you are unless you start listening to the advice you're being given.

Foxhound3857 · Apr 12, 2012

Aldito said:
Lol @ this thread. Assumed it was livetards arguing with you until I saw you were sitting with $2.50. Why are you even bothering to argue with these cretins?

It was a $0.05/$0.10 table and I bought in for the minimum, $3.00.

Foxhound3857 · Apr 12, 2012

WVHillbilly said:
Oh sorry misread that part of how horribly you played the hand. You didn't shove but that doesn't change the overall analysis though. You still suck because you open limped (horrible), you were short stacked (that in and of itself makes you a fish, at best, in my book), and then you tried to teach your opponent how to play (incredibly stupid).

As for going to another forum that's always your choice but if you do decide to stay I'll always be here to tell you how bad you are unless you start listening to the advice you're being given.

I'm not taking advice from a donk like you.

WVHillbilly · Apr 12, 2012

That's fine but there are lots of other people in this thread giving the same advice and it's your BR that's being wasted away, not mine.

MediaBLITZ · Apr 12, 2012

Foxhound3857 said:
It was a $0.05/$0.10 table and I bought in for the minimum, $3.00.

Wow - pretty impossible to take advantage of money making opportunities doing that.

Foxhound3857 · Apr 12, 2012

MediaBLITZ said:
Wow - pretty impossible to take advantage of money making opportunities doing that.

I'd rather lose the minimum if I run into a cooler or get sucked out on.

Told someone KJ suited is a trash hand and should be folded in the face of a raise.

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