Creative poker or robotic play?

teebahnoo · Dec 25, 2019

Here's the story that got me to this question.
I just finished 2d on a 15$ STT. I had the guy on my right playing and wining like 50% of the hands (maybe LAG), another guy across the table who played only 2 hands (AK and AA) and doubles up each time (let's say he was TAG) and after that basically sitting out. These 2 types of players are in all my tourneys.

At some point, I fold AA on a flop that looked like 2 pairs for the LAG and showed my hand. Also said something about how lucky that guy seems to be. Later with 11bb in BB on 6 handed table I called with J9s a shove from LAG who showed AKo and lost. The TAG guy says that was a bad play, again (after folding AA). I do not disagree with him. The LAG is eliminated on 4th.

From the 3d place with 22bb in 3-handed table I called a shove with K9o from the TAG who showed A8s (he was the short stack). The TAG lost and I get on 2d. Again, he claims bad play, I said is a fair call, though my hand should have been suited. TAG eliminated, I get second after losing A7o to AKo to the winner.

In my view, the hands I played were off the calling charts and not the standard play but not by much. Should we just play like puppets the ranges we're told and wait for the puppeteer to decide who gets AK and who wins the flip vs QQ? In an STT which is basically the final table?

Dejange · Dec 25, 2019

teebahnoo said:
Here's the story that got me to this question.
I just finished 2d on a 15$ STT. I had the guy on my right playing and wining like 50% of the hands (maybe LAG), another guy across the table who played only 2 hands (AK and AA) and doubles up each time (let's say he was TAG) and after that basically sitting out. These 2 types of players are in all my tourneys.

At some point, I fold AA on a flop that looked like 2 pairs for the LAG and showed my hand. Also said something about how lucky that guy seems to be. Later with 11bb in BB on 6 handed table I called with J9s a shove from LAG who showed AKo and lost. The TAG guy says that was a bad play, again (after folding AA). I do not disagree with him. The LAG is eliminated on 4th.

From the 3d place with 22bb in 3-handed table I called a shove with K9o from the TAG who showed A8s (he was the short stack). The TAG lost and I get on 2d. Again, he claims bad play, I said is a fair call, though my hand should have been suited. TAG eliminated, I get second after losing A7o to AKo to the winner.

In my view, the hands I played were off the calling charts and not the standard play but not by much. Should we just play like puppets the ranges we're told and wait for the puppeteer to decide who gets AK and who wins the flip vs QQ? In an STT which is basically the final table?

In my opinion you played these hands rather optimal, except K9o, but you were still 3rd at a 3-handed table, so could be also assumed as fine play :top:

I prefer to improvise, instead of playing robotic hands

puzzlefish · Dec 25, 2019

In the end the only thing that matters is whether you win or not. The whole theory of winning with optimal plays in the long run is a theory that doesn't get realized for many players..because the long run can be over more than a person's lifetime.

BART777 · Dec 25, 2019

You played at the same table and were attentive to the actions of opponents, so creative poker is perhaps better.
I am now tormented by your question, but in another context: to play 2 tournaments and creative poker, but there will be no distance; Or play many tournaments, but then it will be possible only robotic game.

TeUnit · Dec 25, 2019

Bruce Lee would tell you "be like water", or adapt to your opponents. For example some villans will fold to a min raise and other villans will never fold to a min raise out of principle.

xy23 · Dec 25, 2019

No you shouldn't just stick to push/fold charts and 'follow the ranges you're told.' Pushing/folding optimally is just one part of several variables including ICM, range, table dynamic, etc. However, MTT's unlike cash games takes a great chunk of luck to win. But as long as you factor in all those variables and hopefully continue to make solid decisions and plays over a period of time, you will be profitable.

1sunchin · Dec 25, 2019

teebahnoo said:
Here's the story that got me to this question.
I just finished 2d on a 15$ STT. I had the guy on my right playing and wining like 50% of the hands (maybe LAG), another guy across the table who played only 2 hands (AK and AA) and doubles up each time (let's say he was TAG) and after that basically sitting out. These 2 types of players are in all my tourneys.

At some point, I fold AA on a flop that looked like 2 pairs for the LAG and showed my hand. Also said something about how lucky that guy seems to be. Later with 11bb in BB on 6 handed table I called with J9s a shove from LAG who showed AKo and lost. The TAG guy says that was a bad play, again (after folding AA). I do not disagree with him. The LAG is eliminated on 4th.

From the 3d place with 22bb in 3-handed table I called a shove with K9o from the TAG who showed A8s (he was the short stack). The TAG lost and I get on 2d. Again, he claims bad play, I said is a fair call, though my hand should have been suited. TAG eliminated, I get second after losing A7o to AKo to the winner.

In my view, the hands I played were off the calling charts and not the standard play but not by much. Should we just play like puppets the ranges we're told and wait for the puppeteer to decide who gets AK and who wins the flip vs QQ? In an STT which is basically the final table?

I think you can name your game correct more than not:top:

thetick33 · Dec 26, 2019

teebahnoo said:
Here's the story that got me to this question.
I just finished 2d on a 15$ STT. I had the guy on my right playing and wining like 50% of the hands (maybe LAG), another guy across the table who played only 2 hands (AK and AA) and doubles up each time (let's say he was TAG) and after that basically sitting out. These 2 types of players are in all my tourneys.

At some point, I fold AA on a flop that looked like 2 pairs for the LAG and showed my hand. Also said something about how lucky that guy seems to be. Later with 11bb in BB on 6 handed table I called with J9s a shove from LAG who showed AKo and lost. The TAG guy says that was a bad play, again (after folding AA). I do not disagree with him. The LAG is eliminated on 4th.

From the 3d place with 22bb in 3-handed table I called a shove with K9o from the TAG who showed A8s (he was the short stack). The TAG lost and I get on 2d. Again, he claims bad play, I said is a fair call, though my hand should have been suited. TAG eliminated, I get second after losing A7o to AKo to the winner.

In my view, the hands I played were off the calling charts and not the standard play but not by much. Should we just play like puppets the ranges we're told and wait for the puppeteer to decide who gets AK and who wins the flip vs QQ? In an STT which is basically the final table?

i absolutely love showing the aa reasoning is confidence if is tight player he might give up on you thinking you have higher skill set...

next part of poker is by feel do not EVER listen to someone bad play junk

basically your job is to simply make others think when is their turn to play.... he was using basic psychology vs you imho

do your game.. I will tell you i mix up play bets all of it honestly.... i want people guessing.... and yes i play some hands others wouldnt but go by instinct and playing millions of hands....i play these hands differently also then someone might play them.... if your game can be defined? you will never reach a top level imho

so mix it up try new things review your play etc... nothing works every time unfortunately

but things like laying down aa in the right situation showing? can change entire view of you as a poker player and should scare the hell out of certain players

narc · Dec 30, 2019

Both must work together. Always be creative, improvise to confuse.

pepomjp · Dec 30, 2019

teebahnoo said:
Here's the story that got me to this question.
I just finished 2d on a 15$ STT. I had the guy on my right playing and wining like 50% of the hands (maybe LAG), another guy across the table who played only 2 hands (AK and AA) and doubles up each time (let's say he was TAG) and after that basically sitting out. These 2 types of players are in all my tourneys.

At some point, I fold AA on a flop that looked like 2 pairs for the LAG and showed my hand. Also said something about how lucky that guy seems to be. Later with 11bb in BB on 6 handed table I called with J9s a shove from LAG who showed AKo and lost. The TAG guy says that was a bad play, again (after folding AA). I do not disagree with him. The LAG is eliminated on 4th.

From the 3d place with 22bb in 3-handed table I called a shove with K9o from the TAG who showed A8s (he was the short stack). The TAG lost and I get on 2d. Again, he claims bad play, I said is a fair call, though my hand should have been suited. TAG eliminated, I get second after losing A7o to AKo to the winner.

In my view, the hands I played were off the calling charts and not the standard play but not by much. Should we just play like puppets the ranges we're told and wait for the puppeteer to decide who gets AK and who wins the flip vs QQ? In an STT which is basically the final table?

I think you did it right. You can't sit and wait to AA, AK, KK to play. A good player mix the hands so when he get the nuts others player will call. In my opinon all the hands you described were well played. Happy holidays.

maxi_j · Dec 30, 2019

teebahnoo said:
Here's the story that got me to this question.
I just finished 2d on a 15$ STT. I had the guy on my right playing and wining like 50% of the hands (maybe LAG), another guy across the table who played only 2 hands (AK and AA) and doubles up each time (let's say he was TAG) and after that basically sitting out. These 2 types of players are in all my tourneys.

At some point, I fold AA on a flop that looked like 2 pairs for the LAG and showed my hand. Also said something about how lucky that guy seems to be. Later with 11bb in BB on 6 handed table I called with J9s a shove from LAG who showed AKo and lost. The TAG guy says that was a bad play, again (after folding AA). I do not disagree with him. The LAG is eliminated on 4th.

From the 3d place with 22bb in 3-handed table I called a shove with K9o from the TAG who showed A8s (he was the short stack). The TAG lost and I get on 2d. Again, he claims bad play, I said is a fair call, though my hand should have been suited. TAG eliminated, I get second after losing A7o to AKo to the winner.

In my view, the hands I played were off the calling charts and not the standard play but not by much. Should we just play like puppets the ranges we're told and wait for the puppeteer to decide who gets AK and who wins the flip vs QQ? In an STT which is basically the final table?

with J9s it depends what his showing position was and so on. You shoud not use you emotions like "he is fooling all us around I should do something" you should determine range and stick to profitable callings.

I dont know is it all hands you played were correct or bad. But thinking process has errors. Why you didint tell about his other hands vs other palyers that went to showdown. Maybe about his strange betting (strange size, donk betting and so on). Also there is no information about his exact stack size and possition

And yes vs very loose players patience is the key. Sometimes its a challenge. But win rate will be skyrocketing. Don`t forget sometimes players are going hot.

You should call accordingly to his shove range. If you don`t know his pushing range exact better stick to calling chart because you wont be exploited (so you win rate will increase if he to loose)

(If he pushed 3 hands from 6 doesn't mean he pushed his 50% range you should combine preflop action frequencies with showdowns)

teebahnoo · Dec 30, 2019

maxi_j said:
with J9s it depends what his showing position was and so on. You shoud not use you emotions like "he is fooling all us around I should do something" you should determine range and stick to profitable callings.

I said I was in BB and the LAG was the player on my right. Agree with you on thinking with the head - I was not expecting to run into the top of his range since he was playing quite a few hands and probably wouldn't shove the premium ones. I actually put him on a small pair or two big cards.

maxi_j said:
Why you didint tell about his other hands vs other palyers that went to showdown. Maybe about his strange betting (strange size, donk betting and so on). Also there is no information about his exact stack size and possition

I think he was 25 bb or something at that point (6 handed). I left out some details for brevity. Let's just say you'd have same read I had about him, what then?

maxi_j said:
You should call accordingly to his shove range. If you don`t know his pushing range exact better stick to calling chart because you wont be exploited (so you win rate will increase if he to loose)

(If he pushed 3 hands from 6 doesn't mean he pushed his 50% range you should combine preflop action frequencies with showdowns)

There - that's exactly the question I'm asking. Would you stick to tight ranges in a final table in a tournament, even in 6-handed or shorter? I must admit I can't understand the "long run" in these cases, I don't get in those spots enough times to think like that. Are you saying there's no difference how late you get in the tourney you play the same?

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Creative poker or robotic play?

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