Defending Blinds with hands you shouldn't play

Ian mcdonough · Aug 12, 2018

I guess this is a leak in my game just wondered what other people's thoughts were?so I've defended my big blind with J7 off against a late position raise hypothetical situation and I've smashed the flop hitting two pair but more often than not find myself being beat in this situation with a bad run out. Does anyone else get themselves into trouble with hands they should fold

Dusan · Aug 12, 2018

Ian mcdonough said:
I guess this is a leak in my game just wondered what other people's thoughts were?so I've defended my big blind with J7 off against a late position raise ............,

When you say "defend", .., What it means? - Are you calling with garbage? - Or, are you 3bet from the blinds? - That's a big difference. Calling is weak. if you 3bet from the blinds get at least some hand that has "suitness +big-card or +connectivity

fatshady21 · Aug 12, 2018

The only way for me to play weak hands like J7 i would have to be the big blind and everyone else simply calls even with a small raise i will fold.

Ian mcdonough · Aug 12, 2018

Yes when I say defending I'm talking about calling. It's a tightrope but I think always folding your blinds to a raise is exploitable also. I'm aware I should not do this but sometimes multiway I'll see a flop against a raiser and more limpers obvs if its a big raise I'll fold

da22duke · Aug 12, 2018

just flat calling the raise when BB with a garbage hand is a weak play. Even when you hit you are out of position. Plus assuming you have garbage and hit bottom two pair you can easily get cracked assuming your opponent has two overs or even an over pair.

akmost · Aug 12, 2018

Defending too wide is a leak , defending too tight is also a leak. But to be honest I find myself defending on the wider side and that made me unpredictable sometimes. I wish I could give you a basic guideline here but that differs by many factors.At least try to defend with hands that have some playability on the flop. J 7 off is not one of those hands, J9s is a way better hand.

Imagine that a light 3bet with a marginal hand is a better play than just a completion of the BB and again that depends on who you are playing against and all that blah blah blah.

FF2586 · Aug 12, 2018

Hi,

Calling the BB with garbage is not great! But you should always defend your BB with some raises and calls. It depends on the strength of the hand, your stack size, your pot odds and the oponnent(s) you're up against.

And to do that well, you should always try to improve your post flop out of position game, unless you're defending against the SB!

But still, you shouldn't be playing garbage hands like J7 off

GL

Gary_Heart · Aug 12, 2018

Ian mcdonough said:
I guess this is a leak in my game just wondered what other people's thoughts were?so I've defended my big blind with J7 off against a late position raise hypothetical situation and I've smashed the flop hitting two pair but more often than not find myself being beat in this situation with a bad run out. Does anyone else get themselves into trouble with hands they should fold

tells come and go - always change it up :bandit:

As you say always folding your blinds to a raise is very exploitable.
As is consistently playing any position the same way depending on your hold cards.
Doing so will quickly become disastrous because other players will lean on you harder and harder as their confidence builds.

The "tightrope" defending blinds with hold cards out of your normal range is whether to continue with the hand. When folding or continuing consider your balance pole is your stack weighted with your current and previous observations of your opponents.
AND as with any hand/position played, your confidence in your hold cards needs to be supported by your outs against the number of opponents and their outs.

Your hypothetical J7 off flopped JJ77 so now you're on a draw for a full house or four of a kind.
But you only have 4 outs - making slim odds - about 16% chance of a boat and about 2% for quads.
Now consider the number of opponents: After this flop you are about 86 to 13 the winner but about 39 to 56 against nine opponents.

As for this JJ77 two pair being beat - It will happen very often when an over card or a flush or straight draw is flopped.

And yes, I've been in trouble with hands I should have folded many times

Also check out CC's calculator Poker Odds Calculator

Ian mcdonough · Aug 14, 2018

One thing I usually do to often is try and outplay someone post flop obvs easier to do when in position but like I said this is a leak I need to plug and stop bleeding chips. You always seem to get some sort of equity on the flop which makes it harder to lay down.

radartodd69 · Aug 14, 2018

I'm pretty sure everyone who plays poker has played hands that they know they shouldn't play. Nothing wrong with folding a junk hand in the blinds. If everyone limps and you happen upon a 2 pair then go ahead and play it. Otherwise fold the junk.

babboonnexx · Aug 15, 2018

Ive been watching Negraneaus Youtube and he cautions about defending blinds and playing more aggressively with large chip counts late in the tournament. Ive resorted to playing a lot more cautiously late in the game and letting some small blinds go if they have no reason to be played in the first place. So far it seems I have been climbing into higher spots.

VMVarga · Nov 15, 2018

Ian mcdonough said:
I guess this is a leak in my game just wondered what other people's thoughts were?so I've defended my big blind with J7 off against a late position raise hypothetical situation and I've smashed the flop hitting two pair but more often than not find myself being beat in this situation with a bad run out. Does anyone else get themselves into trouble with hands they should fold

I was just thinking about writing about this two pair thing. Two pair seems like a killer hand but it is not. I too have hit many two pair on the flop from a big blind defense, and many times my two pair was either bested or counterfeit. I have learned to be more cautious about flopping two pair from the big blind, especially when I think my opponent hit top pair with an ace or king. But sometimes you just get put to the test and you have to decide to call the all in or fold. And it is not easy to fold two pair, even for the best of the pros.

SouthparkSith · Nov 15, 2018

I think it's definitely situational,
If you're in the big at have even something like J/7 and three or four called the min raise or 3bet I'm probably seeing a flop.

Now that said once the flop hits you're either going to have to commit to going with it and being aggressive or letting it go in my opinion. You can't check and call a 3/4pot raise chasing the gutshot or something like that.

Also where are we in the tournament? It's better early and tight later but to each their own. Your going to win some of these but you'll lose many many more than you win.

Just make sure you win enough in the ones you do hit to cover the ones you don't!

Leak plugged! Lol if it we're only that easy

playinggameswithu · Nov 15, 2018

VMVarga said:
I was just thinking about writing about this two pair thing. Two pair seems like a killer hand but it is not. I too have hit many two pair on the flop from a big blind defense, and many times my two pair was either bested or counterfeit. I have learned to be more cautious about flopping two pair from the big blind, especially when I think my opponent hit top pair with an ace or king. But sometimes you just get put to the test and you have to decide to call the all in or fold. And it is not easy to fold two pair, even for the best of the pros.

Its like 76% win 24% lose with bottom two including villian overpairs.I suspected like 9 to 1 nope.

Tunnelrat · Nov 15, 2018

From what I understand hitting two pair is pretty strong but not that strong. Especially if the board is paired and you're sitting on pockets, the pair on the board can easily make someone a set. Not only that but if you're hole cards are connected and you flop two pair (no pair on the board) then usually there will be a straight draw to fear as well if not a complete straight made on the flop. So I guess it all depends on what the board texture looks like. I don't find it hard folding a two pair if the board looks threatening, what I do find hard is folding a big hand even though I'm almost certain that I'm beat. Like pocket KK and an ace comes down and a preflopraiser decides to raise big. I've managed to fold a few times but man it sucks.

Poker_Mike · Nov 15, 2018

Ian mcdonough said:
I guess this is a leak in my game just wondered what other people's thoughts were?so I've defended my big blind with J7 off against a late position raise hypothetical situation and I've smashed the flop hitting two pair but more often than not find myself being beat in this situation with a bad run out. Does anyone else get themselves into trouble with hands they should fold

Sort of a simple topic and sort of a complicated topic....

I agree with Dusan that flatting is weak....priced in or not.

2 pair with garbage....fantastic....is AKs paying you?

Some players ALWAYS defend (flat) the raise in their BB. Just as a matter of policy. "Hey if you raise my BB I will 'defend' and I might flop 2 pair....lookout for me!"

But if the original raiser flipped up his cards and showed you AA - would you call?

Just food for thought...

Good luck !

jmateuspoker · Nov 15, 2018

Defendig Blind

Blind defense is often a great option

But it depends on tournament situations

Such as a deep stack villain exploring the table and you too plug struggle to not be exploited near a bubble or a final stretch of a tournament

Another example of blind war when we have a range four on the table by closing the tournament there worth defending with any two cards

But in other situations I do not see viability defend blinds with marginal hands

mateuspoker

This Fish Chums · Nov 16, 2018

The Upside of Defending Blinds

Defending your blinds can have a number of beneficial side effects. First, it can lead other player to think that you are playing looser than you really are. The benefit to this is that when you do have a good hand it can lull people into thinking you're playing crap or just defending your blinds. Another benefit is that it teaches people they can't bully you so easily. It can make them think twice about raising or re-raising you.
Now, one thing to always consider is the skill of your opponents. Do you think your opponents are skilled enough to realize what you're typically doing? And if they are, are they skilled enough to be tracking everyone at the table? Or do you think you're the one everyone at the table has chosen to pay close attention to?
Playing J7o to defend your blind is great when playing against pros, but I'd advise against it when playing against your average players.

Andrei Korolev · Nov 16, 2018

With marginal hands, or simply with the rubbish on the BB check-call and a raise and re-raise fold...

Poker_Mike · Nov 16, 2018

Andrei Korolev said:
With marginal hands, or simply with the rubbish on the BB check-call and a raise and re-raise fold...

Oh, I like this Andrei!

You might turn the original poster into a beast !!

Good luck !

Andrei Korolev · Nov 16, 2018

Poker_Mike said:
Oh, I like this Andrei!

You might turn the original poster into a beast !!

Good luck !

Good luck with everything...

Poker_Mike · Nov 16, 2018

Andrei Korolev said:
Good luck with everything...

Thank you.

But, if I just have a little more luck in poker then it could make up for everything else. lol

eberetta1 · Nov 16, 2018

Its a leak in my game too. I am not goong to defend my blinds, preferring to fight my battles with hands that can win me some chips. And if they cant win me some chips, the hand has a higher win ratio than some of the crap i receive in the blinds.

Martin Carreira · Nov 16, 2018

It happens to me a lot. In cases where I have the big blind or small blind, I feel that I have to see the flop, although I know that I am acting badly and that I have many chances to lose. In several cases I have managed to win good boats, but I know I should not do it, although I still do it hahahaha

cranberry · Nov 17, 2018

J7 is not a game card to protect the big blind. To protect the blinds on BB, you need to respond to a raise with pocket hands, which have 35% equity against the opponent's range.
Approximate range against UTG-raiser: 22+, A2s+, A2+, K2s+, K9+, Q5s+, Q9+, J6s+, J9+, T7s+, T9+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s.

Defending Blinds with hands you shouldn't play

Ian mcdonough

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Dusan

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fatshady21

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Ian mcdonough

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da22duke

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akmost

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FF2586

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Gary_Heart

Gotta Have Heart

Ian mcdonough

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radartodd69

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babboonnexx

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VMVarga

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SouthparkSith

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playinggameswithu

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Tunnelrat

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Poker_Mike

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jmateuspoker

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This Fish Chums

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Andrei Korolev

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Poker_Mike

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Andrei Korolev

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eberetta1

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Martin Carreira

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