Floor killed my hand after dealer error

So I was playing in a multi-day tournament at the Borgata in Atlantic City, NJ, 2 weeks ago now. This was specifically an invitation only recreational league event. I won a satellite for my seat into the event valued at $400. We are playing 9-handed and I have about 15 big blinds in my stack around level 7. I had been card dead for a few levels now and was slowly being blinded out of the tournament after doing okay early on. This occurred about 15 minutes before the break and end of late registration (though I had no plans to rebuy this event if I had busted).

I am dealt in the big blind (2 seat) and 5 players limp in the pot ahead of me. I am thinking my only move at this stack depth is all in, so here we go. 4 players basically instafold, though one may have acted out of turn (relevant in a second). Dealer then proceeded to ship me the pot, and take the cards from the muck and begin to shuffle the deck (taking the cards and beginning to wash them). About 15-30 seconds after this happens, another player at the table noticed that someone in middle position (7 seat) still has cards and was apparently tanking this whole time! So he begins to complain, then dealer calls floor, I say to the guy "are you actually calling or not?" and he says yes.

Floor comes over and everyone is trying to explain the situation to him, but he really doesn't listen... The dealer tries to explain but he does not speak good English.

Floor's final ruling is that since the mucked cards are now in the deck and a clean flop cannot be dealt, it is a "fouled deck" and everyone in the pot is returned their blinds but the button moved so I did not have to pay the BB and ante again.

Was this the correct ruling? Or should just his hand be dead for taking too long to say anything. I feel like when he saw the pot being shipped to me that was enough notice for him to be given that he had to contest the hand.

Unfortunately it is what it is. Its a dealer error & there is no way to recreate the pot as dealer is already washing the cards. Why didn't you stop the dealer from shipping you the pot & pointed out that there is still another player in the tank? Sometimes its incumbent on the players to pay attention on the the game since dealers are human and could commit mistakes just as in this case. If the dealer have not completely mucked the deck & community cards can still be reasonably determined then the pot would continue otherwise it would be "fouled".

YLAN said:

Unfortunately it is what it is. Its a dealer error & there is no way to recreate the pot as dealer is already washing the cards. Why didn't you stop the dealer from shipping you the pot & pointed out that there is still another player in the tank? Sometimes its incumbent on the players to pay attention on the the game since dealers are human and could commit mistakes just as in this case. If the dealer have not completely mucked the deck & community cards can still be reasonably determined then the pot would continue otherwise it would be "fouled".

Click to expand...

I should point out that I did not see the other players cards, he was using a card protector.... only noticed when the other player said something.

i see your point, but just because the other player took long to act, was not his fault. this is the dealers fault for not noticing the other player. correct call, hand is fouled and all moneys returned.

The dealer is absolutely obliged to count cards... Most likely, he was either fined or fired after that...

They definitely can not declare the other players hand dead, just because "he took to long", if there is no clock or other rule determining, how long its allowed to take. And 15-30 seconds also does not seem extreme at all in a live game. However the ruling, that everyone should get their chips back, seems a bit ridiculous to me, when 4 players had already folded after putting chips into the pot. Thats literally a freeroll for them.

If Heros cards were in the muck, because he thought, he already won the pot, then a fair resolution would have been to split the pot between Hero and the other guy, who was tanking. And if Hero was still holding on to his cards, so that both players had a live hand, then I think, a board should have been dealt, even if the folded cards of the other players were already reshuffled into the deck.

Reshuffling dead cards into the deck does not change the chance of either player winning, at least not in a meaningfull way. In fact some online sites have actually begun doing this in all hands to prevent collusion by sharing hold card information. So this would have been a significantly more fair ruling. But perhaps the rules of this particular room did not allow this resolution, and then of course one can not blame the floor guy for sticking to the rules.

Correct ruling at my local casino and a few others I've played at......I can't imagine it'd be any different else where. Yes it sucks but that's life...human error happens all the time in poker and in everyday life. There's simply no way this hand could proceed.

Cheers!!!

TDA rule - Substantial Action Out of Turn (OOT)
A player skipped by OOT action must defend his right to act. If there is reasonable time and the skipped player has not spoken up by the time substantial action (see Rule 36) OOT occurs to his left, the OOT action is binding. The floor will be called to render a decision on how to treat the skipped hand.

It seems to me that the action of awarding the pot should stand but as one can see the floor could change this.

TDA rule - Floor Decisions
The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final.

sibkaz said:

The dealer is absolutely obliged to count cards... Most likely, he was either fined or fired after that...

Click to expand...

What? You think card dealers are fined or fired after such a mistake?
If it happens moreoften they probably get fired but they can't give him a fine for dealing a round incorrectly 🤣

I agree that the hand should have, at the very least, been split between the two remaining players…but I do feel that the tanking player should have been considered to have folded his cards. That was very bad luck…even though your strong cards didn’t guarantee you winning the hand.

Jillychemung said:

TDA rule - Substantial Action Out of Turn (OOT)
A player skipped by OOT action must defend his right to act. If there is reasonable time and the skipped player has not spoken up by the time substantial action (see Rule 36) OOT occurs to his left, the OOT action is binding. The floor will be called to render a decision on how to treat the skipped hand.

It seems to me that the action of awarding the pot should stand but as one can see the floor could change this.

TDA rule - Floor Decisions
The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final.

Click to expand...

In light of the above, it seems the 'fairest' result would be that the tanking player loses his limp, and you scoop the pot, however the only thing that is clear here, is that its not clear. As in the rules are open to interpretation by the floor.

As has been said before is similar situations, it really does come down to being fully aware at all times. However having played live a fair bit, this is often easier said than done, especially of you're used to playing onlne too, where everything just happens.

Just gotta chalk it down to experience and try to focus more in the future, and speak up as soon as you do spot something weird

_420_420_ said:

I should point out that I did not see the other players cards, he was using a card protector.... only noticed when the other player said something.

Click to expand...

Did the card protector cover the entire card?

Or, did he have both his hands on his cards looking relaxed but you couldn't see that he had cards?

I agree that the dealer screwed this up.

Obviously mistakes like this only happen in live play.