How PokerStars is shuffling the deck?

Could You please tell me how Pokerstars is shuffling the deck?
I would like to know if the idea of a deck shuffled once before dealing cards is right or they are executing RNG each time the card is needed on the table.
Just to be sure that if I folded pockets twos and there are another twos on the flop, I have lost four of a twos?

Kaski54 said:

Could You please tell me how Pokerstars is shuffling the deck?
I would like to know if the idea of a deck shuffled once before dealing cards is right or they are executing RNG each time the card is needed on the table.
Just to be sure that if I folded pockets twos and there are another twos on the flop, I have lost four of a twos?

Click to expand...

You can see the explanation of Lee Jones (Head of Poker Communications) talking more about it. Here it speaks as the random number generator creates a fair shuffle when you play online poker at PokerStars.

thx i have seen it.
But it is not clear if they shuffle once per hand or not...

I don't think we can find the details regarding the implementation for cards shuffling. I'm a developer and modern software is built using object-oriented paradigm ( OOP ). It means that we try to create a software using the virtual implementation of the real objects and processes. So my consern that PokerStars and other rooms use the same approach that is used in real casino. And if you fold two twos and another two twos are laying on a table than we can't get more twos in current turn.

Thx for Your answers.
They are not giving me clear vision if one deck is used for the whole hand or they are shuffling rest of a deck before each card put on the table?

if you're losing. they're shuffling with cold hands. no doubt.
but i bet they can beat the best dealer at my local casino as far as hands per hour go!

Kaski54 said:

Thx for Your answers.
They are not giving me clear vision if one deck is used for the whole hand or they are shuffling rest of a deck before each card put on the table?

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You are not going to get REAL answer in the sense you seem to look for.
But figuratively.
Cut the deck
And know you're among friends.

acidburnfx said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DkHzOUzDjc

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Cool video ! Thanx alot!
Was really interesting to know about this important moment in on-line poker as shuffle!

I do think about it quite a lot.
I know it does not matter at all but...
I would prefer them to do it like in real life.
It means shuffle the deck in an order just once per hand and deal all cards in order.

Cloxy said:

I don't think we can find the details regarding the implementation for cards shuffling. I'm a developer and modern software is built using object-oriented paradigm ( OOP ). It means that we try to create a software using the virtual implementation of the real objects and processes. So my consern that PokerStars and other rooms use the same approach that is used in real casino. And if you fold two twos and another two twos are laying on a table than we can't get more twos in current turn.

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Why is this a concern?
That's how it should be done.

acidburnfx said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DkHzOUzDjc

Click to expand...

thx for sharing

ps tells different things in different stories or even within 1 story.
option 1: the shuffle the deck (like in a casino)
With 52 cards, there are more than 8*10^67 possibilities (different deck orders), thats an 8 with 67 zeroes!
Interstestingly, ps says this is 5*10^67; somehow they missed 30%.
option 2: take a not-shuffled deck (e.g. always 2-A * 4) and take a random card.

Although the result is the same, most likely they use option 2, as it is much more easy to implement.

Both methods use a random number generator RNG.
The basics the RNG must comply with is that 'any card can be the next'. Mathematically this result in at least the following two:
1) on average all cards are selected the same number of times
2) the average interval between selection of a specific card is 52, while the frequency distribution is flat

On the accreditation/verification:
1) a large part will be on 'is the procedure followed'
2) verify the randomness, is not 100% possible! Even ps claim some 100 billion hands, well there were 8*10^67 different decks, so 100*10^9 is a rediculously small sample. Analyzing any data set will result in a % conformity to the expectations, resulting in a accept or reject.

Luckily the RNG does not need to be 100%, as poker is also skill based.
As long as the RNG 'defect' is negligible compared to the skill differences, the RNG has no biased effect on the result of the game.

8bod8 said:

ps tells different things in different stories or even within 1 story.
option 1: the shuffle the deck (like in a casino)
With 52 cards, there are more than 8*10^67 possibilities (different deck orders), thats an 8 with 67 zeroes!
Interstestingly, ps says this is 5*10^67; somehow they missed 30%.
option 2: take a not-shuffled deck (e.g. always 2-A * 4) and take a random card.

Click to expand...

I agree option 2 is much more likely.
It gives me less worry about folded sets, full houses or four of a kinds, since picking each card randomly means that it could be different story if a beam of light would not break through the glass.

Agony of hitting after a fold

Kaski54 said:

Could You please tell me how Pokerstars is shuffling the deck?
I would like to know if the idea of a deck shuffled once before dealing cards is right or they are executing RNG each time the card is needed on the table.
Just to be sure that if I folded pockets twos and there are another twos on the flop, I have lost four of a twos?

Click to expand...

I do not play Pokerstars, however i understand your frustration. I will usually play a small pocket pair preflop on a less than 3x blind depending on stack/bubble. The fact that you would have hit four of a kind on a flop is not relevant as I guess you made the correct preflop decision to fold on a large raise. Making the right decision preflop is always best. I have folded many junk hands 6 3 etc that have either hit straights or boats. The problem with playing weak hands is if you hit top pair and someone is value playing kings or aces. You lose more chips.

My goal is not to play each hand but to make it to the money! I do hate it though when a player with a crap hand calls with 6 outs and runner runner needed and hits.

Yep. Agreed.
But it really hurts when I have 7 6 off in hand and flop is coming 7 6 7...

I was going to open another thread asking how people dealing with such situations but now I know.
Just win money not single hands.

Kaski54 said:

Yep. Agreed.
But it really hurts when I have 7 6 off in hand and flop is coming 7 6 7...

I was going to open another thread asking how people dealing with such situations but now I know.
Just win money not single hands.

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That's okay. 67 for 767 is not unbeatable on turn and river. Don't get attached to your holdings on the flop too much, folded or not.

I notice the same kinds of things happen in home games as do in online poker. So I trust the way it's done on the 2 sites I play on.

Kaski54 said:

thx i have seen it.
But it is not clear if they shuffle once per hand or not...

Click to expand...

I dont know how it works, but ive noticed... If I win a turney or s&g multi table.. Next several tourneys, playing same way of my side,im losing a lot. It doesnt let me to reach even the money seats. It is very very strange.

kriss22m said:

I dont know how it works, but ive noticed... If I win a turney or s&g multi table.. Next several tourneys, playing same way of my side,im losing a lot. It doesnt let me to reach even the money seats. It is very very strange.

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That’s not strange at all....

How many players do you know that win the wsop five times in a row....?

Even the best players don’t cash in every tourney they play and since k is a bigger factor online it is absolutely normal to have losing streaks....

As long as you win more than you spend on buyins over a longer period of time you are doing fine.

I would worry much more about the RNG if I would notice that certain players actually make it to the final table in 50% of the MTTs they played...

Cloxy said:

I don't think we can find the details regarding the implementation for cards shuffling. I'm a developer and modern software is built using object-oriented paradigm ( OOP ). It means that we try to create a software using the virtual implementation of the real objects and processes. So my consern that PokerStars and other rooms use the same approach that is used in real casino. And if you fold two twos and another two twos are laying on a table than we can't get more twos in current turn.

Click to expand...

I think the shuffle it every time or at least every 2 times. Because i had 4 or 5 times in a row AA.. Strange isnt it?! It happened on the final table of S&G turney. But nobody called me(i made all-in) so i can see the cards and tell if they shuffle every single time. Sorry.

For pleasure I will answer - they do not shuffle the deck at all. Sometimes they even annoy the distribution of cards. I want to shout at the dealer.

Kaski54 said:

thx i have seen it.
But it is not clear if they shuffle once per hand or not...

Click to expand...

They clearly say they shuffle once per hand. Whether they do as they say, it's another question, but I don't see the reason to not believe them...

They use a very complex system of RNG. Game Integrity is very important to players and I think the way Pokerstars has done this is very professional and transparent.

It may seem sometimes like the cards are against you, or think its rigged sometimes when you hit a losimg streak. But this is just probablilitys at work. The "bad beats" will become even more frequent if you multi-table, as you play more hands per hour.

I will trust that the system of RNG works until someone has overwhelming proof that it is not and not some anecdotal evidence by some random youtuber who just lost a bunch of money.