Who programs/manufactures each site's RNG?

puzzlefish · Mar 27, 2024

Does anyone know which company/programmers developed each major poker site's RNG? Are there certain sites that share the same RNG with other sites?

I tried asking this question in the rigged poker mega thread, but I realize that's not a very visible thread so I thought to ask here instead. Not saying or arguing in this thread whether online poker is rigged or not. I just want to know more about RNGs.

I know Poker Stars claims they have the hardware portion with lasers and diffraction that is plugged into their RNG, which is different than other sites, and I would like to know who made that as well.

Anyone know anything about this?

MK_ · Mar 27, 2024

I have think a good way to learn about rngs is to get a tracker and run it to see for yourself how the rng works,

ID Quantique makes a rng program called Quantis, it has been certified by Gaming Labs International.

I don't know what programs other sites use but Google is your friend😎👍

antonis32123 · Mar 27, 2024

All sites (poker room sites ) have the same RNG (more or less) . Number and aggressiveness of bots is the only thing that varies from site to site .

puzzlefish · Mar 27, 2024

MK_ said:
I have think a good way to learn about rngs is to get a tracker and run it to see for yourself how the rng works

This is an interesting idea, but then what metrics would you use? I'm not really interested in the usual distribution frequencies and winning frequencies. And I just want to know for sure whether the RNG is the same or different.

G0930 · Mar 27, 2024

Which RNG is used in rooms exactly is insider knowledge.
However any RNG code must be certified before used.
Additionally the rooms run intern programs to test the Rngs . Under strict supervision of the gambling regulator

You can read about licensing process here

Obtaining RNG certificate | Law & Trust International

Obtaining RNG certificate The gambling industry is one of the most popular and promising types of business activity.Despite the strict requirements for obtaining this license, it provides excellent opportunities for a constant flow of customers and reliable income.However, the opportunities for...

lawstrust.com

puzzlefish said:
Does anyone know which company/programmers developed each major poker site's RNG? Are there certain sites that share the same RNG with other sites?

I tried asking this question in the rigged poker mega thread, but I realize that's not a very visible thread so I thought to ask here instead. Not saying or arguing in this thread whether online poker is rigged or not. I just want to know more about RNGs.

I know Poker Stars claims they have the hardware portion with lasers and diffraction that is plugged into their RNG, which is different than other sites, and I would like to know who made that as well.

Anyone know anything about this?

puzzlefish · Mar 27, 2024

G0930 said:
Which RNG is used in rooms exactly is insider knowledge.
However any RNG code must be certified before used.
Additionally the rooms run intern programs to test the Rngs . Under strict supervision of the gambling regulator

You can read about licensing process here

Obtaining RNG certificate | Law & Trust International

Obtaining RNG certificate The gambling industry is one of the most popular and promising types of business activity.Despite the strict requirements for obtaining this license, it provides excellent opportunities for a constant flow of customers and reliable income.However, the opportunities for...

lawstrust.com

Also very interesting. So we don't know where this code came from or who made it, or whether it is ubiquitous between different poker rooms.

G0930 · Mar 27, 2024

puzzlefish said:
Also very interesting. So we don't know where this code came from or who made it, or whether it is ubiquitous between different poker rooms.

True , we actually need to rely on the integrity of gambling regulators..
Not exactly comforting. 😅

MK_ · Mar 27, 2024

puzzlefish said:
This is an interesting idea, but then what metrics would you use? I'm not really interested in the usual distribution frequencies and winning frequencies. And I just want to know for sure whether the RNG is the same or different.

.... A quick perusal of google tells me Acr has SJH studios rng and is verified by ITech labs... so no don't think they're all the same software but the only thing that concerns me is do the odds show up as they should, that's a long term not a short term process to check but they do according to the trackers I've used. Then again most poker sites booted players in the US long ago. Most poker sites I've ever played at have this info on their website it's easy to check👍

Artbart805 · Mar 27, 2024

MK_ said:
I have think a good way to learn about rngs is to get a tracker and run it to see for yourself how the rng works,

ID Quantique makes a rng program called Quantis, it has been certified by Gaming Labs International.

I don't know what programs other sites use but Google is your friend😎👍

YES, but, who is Gaming Labs International? It could be just another layered company owned by directly or indirectly the same group.
This is how you get all the political movements saying " experts of ???, say that" when they are indirectly the same group with the same agenda

G0930 · Mar 27, 2024

MK_ said:
.... A quick perusal of google tells me Acr has SJH studios rng and is verified by ITech labs... so no don't think they're all the same software but the only thing that concerns me is do the odds show up as they should, that's a long term not a short term process to check but they do according to the trackers I've used. Then again most poker sites booted players in the US long ago. Most poker sites I've ever played at have this info on their website it's easy to check👍

Good to know .. couldn't find that on any pokeroom's website 😅

Tero · Mar 27, 2024

I'm guessing that all the big ones make their own? Because why wouldn't they?
I've heard that PS created this solution

Firefly Monkeys throwing darts to a wall that is filled with numbers 86694

MK_ · Mar 27, 2024

G0930 said:
Good to know .. couldn't find that on any pokeroom's website 😅

....took me minutes to find Pokerstars, Acr, Bet Online, Party Poker... all on their sites then I got bored lol..

puzzlefish · Mar 27, 2024

Nafor said:
I'm guessing that all the big ones make their own? Because why wouldn't they?
I've heard that PS created this solution
View attachment 357237

Is this their backup RNG for when their laser stops firing at their diffraction prisms or is it in addition to the other user inputs, like mouse movements, etc.?

MK_ · Mar 27, 2024

Artbart805 said:
YES, but, who is Gaming Labs International? It could be just another layered company owned by directly or indirectly the same group.
This is how you get all the political movements saying " experts of ???, say that" when they are indirectly the same group with the same agenda

... can't imagine what it's like thinking eveything's a conspiracy, with no evidence of a conspiracy except it makes you feel better to think you're the victim of a conspiracy, enjoy... and end scene,,,

puzzlefish · Mar 27, 2024

G0930 said:
True , we actually need to rely on the integrity of gambling regulators..
Not exactly comforting. 😅

No, and from my experiences with communicating with the auditing and certification bodies, I am not exactly convinced of that part of the process either. I think only one poker room had an open source RNG that anyone could look at, and that was coin poker if I recall correctly.

puzzlefish · Mar 27, 2024

MK_ said:
.... A quick perusal of google tells me Acr has SJH studios rng and is verified by ITech labs... so no don't think they're all the same software but the only thing that concerns me is do the odds show up as they should, that's a long term not a short term process to check but they do according to the trackers I've used. Then again most poker sites booted players in the US long ago. Most poker sites I've ever played at have this info on their website it's easy to check👍

Odds of what? Just how often cards show up in player's hands and draws show up on the community board?

MK_ said:
....took me minutes to find Pokerstars, Acr, Bet Online, Party Poker... all on their sites then I got bored lol..

Ok, I didn't look for ACR's but still yet to find Pokerstars..

I found this

TSG Interactive Gaming Europe Limited - GLIAccess

But that just talks about the parent company name - TSG Interactive Gaming - which operates PokerStars. It doesn't say who designed/programmed their RNG.

Edit: found Quantis designed the laser diffraction thingy

PokerStars Takes You Behind the Random Number Generator

The video of PokerStars HQ included an intriguing explanation of how it achieves randomness in the shuffle.

pokerfuse.com

But then PokerStars corrupts that by introducing other layers/sources of "randomness" from user inputs, and everything has to be put together, so who programmed that part of the process? Company? Employee at PS?

Tero · Mar 27, 2024

puzzlefish said:
Is this their backup RNG for when their laser stops firing at their diffraction prisms or is it in addition to the other user inputs, like mouse movements, etc.?

Oh, this is the fuzzy logic part

BelFish · Mar 27, 2024

I am the greatest expert in the field of RNG ))
If something does not work very honestly, it is always quite easy to check using statistical methods. Statistics is a very developed and advanced science! To find deviations from the norm, and sometimes large deviations, you do not need to collect very large statistics! If online poker is dishonest, then the statistics will immediately show it. I have excellent methods to check this, but I’m just too lazy to do it ))
I'll write a short article about this later...

puzzlefish · Mar 27, 2024

BelFish said:
I have excellent methods to check this, but I’m just too lazy to do it ))
I'll write a short article about this later...

I genuinely look forward to your article and seeing the methods that you use.

BelFish · Apr 1, 2024

Ok, tomarrow i will write big article!
And i use only statistical methods...

---------------------------

For example, what do you think, if you toss a coin 1000 times, what is the probability that it will come up heads 540 times or more? Maybe 20%? 30%? Maybe 50%?

------------------------

Let's say you bought a block of 100 chewing gum. Each gum can contain any sticker (of the 75 numbers of stickers) with equal probability. If you unpacked all 100 chewing gums and collected 30 different stickers, is this normal or dishonest?

IADaveMark · Apr 2, 2024

Even if two sites were using the same, the results will all be different.

BelFish · Apr 6, 2024

IADaveMark said:
Even if two sites were using the same, the results will all be different.

Well, I wasn’t talking about the results of work the RNG for different sites, but about the fact that there are reliable, simple ways to check the honesty (or dishonesty) of the RNG.

You don't even need very large hand statistics. And at the same time, it will almost certainly be possible to say whether the RNG is honest or dishonest.

-----------------

I apologize for not writing the article I was talking about then. It’s just that that day I went deep into the ITM at the tournament, and there was no time to write. And the next day my tooth hurt. And then I just forgot about it )))

But during this time you also did not answer my 2 questions above! They relate to this article and are related to honesty.

I'll probably write the article no later than the middle of next week. There will be a method for checking the honesty of the RNG.

I hope that someone else will try to answer those 2 questions of mine from the last post, writing what you think about this.

puzzlefish · Apr 6, 2024

BelFish said:
what do you think, if you toss a coin 1000 times, what is the probability that it will come up heads 540 times or more?

About half of a percent, 0.5%

BelFish said:
If you unpacked all 100 chewing gums and collected 30 different stickers, is this normal or dishonest?

It's normal depending on how the chewing gum packages were manufactured and mixed.

puzzlefish · Apr 6, 2024

BelFish said:
There will be a method for checking the honesty of the RNG.

I look forward to seeing it, although I actually want to know a way to see if two RNGs are the same or not. I think I already found my answer though.

Who programs/manufactures each site's RNG?

puzzlefish

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MK_

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G0930

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Obtaining RNG certificate | Law & Trust International

puzzlefish

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Obtaining RNG certificate | Law & Trust International

G0930

Captain Fathermucker, Satty Aficionado

MK_

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Artbart805

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G0930

Captain Fathermucker, Satty Aficionado

Tero

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MK_

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MK_

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PokerStars Takes You Behind the Random Number Generator

Tero

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BelFish

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puzzlefish

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BelFish

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