Is a poker tracker a must?

JusSumguy said:

DJ... you know I respect you bro. And I agree to a point. A HUD allows you to remember more than is humanly possible...

Hypothetical...

The richest guy in the world sits down at the WSOP. He hires a guy to track everything available for EACH TABLE. And all these guys relay their info to a main compiler guy. And that guy relays all this compiled info to the richest guy in the world in real time. No matter what table he's moved to, he continues to get all this info IN REAL TIME from his hundreds of minions.

Would the WSOP allow this? Maybe they would... I dunno.


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That would be like datamining/buying HH's, which I already said is against TOS and is not allowed now, so no, it's not like using tracking software because it uses hands that YOU did not play in.

online poker and live poker are completely different.
if others are using hud's online then you need one
yourself to level the field.
i dont use a hud but i am only a recreational/micro player.
i think using a hud is one of the steps to becoming a
more serious online player.
the question does not apply to live poker

JusSumguy said:

No takers?-

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Don't think so. To do such a thing, there would need to be a lot of commotion around that guy, and he would get the casino eye.

I tend to agree that trackers do collect more than most humans can. But think of the folks with total recall, photographic memories, who happen to have quick as a whip calculating prowess. In which case, a tracker becomes at best an equalizer.

Isnt it how they found the online pros cheating? Someone used poker tracker to analize the hands. I have not used poker tracker although i heard from others online that has used it and said it was helpful in improving ones game. And there is a 60 day free trial.

Lots of donks usin' HUD
If it's helping their games I can't imagine what they play like w/o it jk

OP, sure if you're going to play semi-professionally at some point then you'll want to get a HUD (especially if you're playing cash tables!!!!!.. for tourneys.. not so much although not a bad idea at all, obviously).

if you're newer'ish' I'd recommend going w/o it for awhile first.

I would use a HUD if I made more than I currently do playing poker. Right now I consider myself lucky to be playing online poker and do not want to risk getting banned by any of the few poker sites remaining.

eberetta1 said:

I would use a HUD if I made more than I currently do playing poker. Right now I consider myself lucky to be playing online poker and do not want to risk getting banned by any of the few poker sites remaining.

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You can't get banned for using a tracker/HUD.

One should be banned though...

This is my reasoning. It's simple, and it's sound.

To start. I'm not knocking the incredible tool which these devices are. In fact, their very abilities are the cornerstone of my argument.

Argument:

A person should only be allowed to play with the tools and abilities he/she can garner within themselves without any outside influence. Why? Because that's the way the odds are set. (simple). To add outside influence unfairly changes the odds. (sound)

But what about the guy with photographic memory? They should be rooted out and banned from poker. Just like in Black Jack. These people have the ability to change the odds. Not good. In Black Jack it's only bad news for the casino. They pay quite a lot of money to root out these geniuses. Changing the odds, changes everything.

In Poker, it's bad news only to us, while having no consequence to the casino. They still get their fee's and drops. This leaves it up to us. And since we have no casino/rules backing in these issues, it's allowed to infiltrate our environment at will. If it changed one little thing for the casino's... BAM.

We should always be aware of the odds and more aware of any attempt to change them. We should not be allowed ANY outside influence into our betting process.

Bottom line... it changes the odds. And therefore should be out and out banned.

But one can dream... --


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Your big problem that makes it not "sound" is that it does not change the odds at all. The odds come from what cards are yet to come and have already come, not based on what knowledge you have on your other opponents. Chasing a flush is still going to give you the same odds whether you know how many times your opponent raises before the flop or not.

You could have the most amazing read on someone(tracker/HUD or not), that still isn't going to change the odds of what cards come.

Based on your statement that someone with a photographic memory should be banned...you're an idiot, plain and simple(you like that word, right?)

absoluthamm said:

Your big problem that makes it not "sound" is that it does not change the odds at all.

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Does it change your betting?

And BTW. I work really hard in trying to keep my comments from being directed at any person. I resent your direct attacks on me. It's a legitimate (sound) argument and deserves more than a childish reply.

Again... Does it change your betting? Simple question.


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Yes I think it changes your betting. Doesn't change the odd of cards to come but changes the way you would play against a specific person you have collected stats on rather somebody you dont have stats on. Nobody can collect all these stats mentally that's why I am against HUDs. Trackers or non existent in live poker.

buster999 said:

Yes I think it changes your betting. Doesn't change the odd of cards to come but changes the way you would play against a specific person you have collected stats on rather somebody you dont have stats on. Nobody can collect all these stats mentally that's why I am against HUDs. Trackers or non existent in live poker.

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Thank you.

There are rules in Holdem which specifically ban anything, or action which influences the betting.

(edit) banter aside

(edit2) And in some cases even banter is disallowed.


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JusSumguy said:

Do you guys feel naked in a live game? Or is there some sort of adjustment you make. I'm not being facetious, really. Just seems that if someone relies on a HUD for 99.9% of their hands, live play must require some sort of an adjustment.

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Just to address this. I play like I play live or online. The only really issue I have with live play is that where I play the format is SnG like and when it gets to the final 3 guys I'm out of my league. Very rarely I'm not one of those 3 even if I'm not a tournament guy.

My greatest skill (and I say this without any arrogance) since as long as I can remember is how fast I adapt to the table and conditions. Several guys I play with live change their style week in week out and I never had an issue with the game itself. Never needed a HUD to "get it".

The most important read I try to get both online and offline is betting patterns and if there is a way of getting that knowledge from a HUD, I never got it.

So, bottom line, I never felt naked because of the HUD not being present live. Poker is poker. I understand your questions, trully do and I think there's too much "robotic" behavior on most of the players that use a HUD but I don't think that a generalization is in order.

JuSumguy.

It doesnt change your betting. You still have to decide what to bet and when.


Think about it like this. You're playing live but instead of 1 table you're playing 6-12 tables running around back and forth. You will never see all the action that takes place. Would you be able to play well without knowing what happened in any of the hands? IMO the HUD would be less borderline "dirty" then asking people at the table what happened in every big hand. Finding out bet sizes or who is bluffin a lot or who the super nit is.


Obv that doenst happen in live poker but thats why live poker=/=online poker.

JusSumguy said:

That's exactly what I look for in a HUD player. It's very easy to dupe the numbers on you guys.

HUD's, in my opinion, makes for too rigid of a game. And makes it too easy to get fooled by someone who knows what you're looking at.

One of the age old problems in poker is to figure out what the villain thinks of you. If they're using a HUD (easy to recognize) then you know what they're thinking of you.

A little number jiggering and you're whomever you want to be.

JMO/YMMV


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JusSumguy said:

Do you realize how easy it is to make oneself look like a maniac to a HUD? Now that my numbers are on the HUD players juicy fruit list, it's easy to induce big calls with premium hands.EASY, PEASY.

I do believe a HUD is good for evaluating one's own play. But when one makes a decision about their opponent based on that person's numbers. That's where you can get stung.

Again..... JMO/YMMV


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JusSumguy said:

I do have a serious question for the HUD players though.

I'm a live player. I have never deposited one cent on line. I find the lower level play money games on line to be excellent practice for live casino action. Also, it's a good place to donk off some steam for free. So...
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JuSumguy,
I have never made a post like this but if you don’t have any experience on a topic don’t add your two cents. If you are ignorant on a topic ask questions but don’t say you can beat a HUD and act like an expert when you have no experience to back up your opinion. The op had a question that I was interested in reading the answers but you made this a painful thread for me to read.

Do you mind if I revive this argument? (since no one answered I take that as a yes)

I know that I am just about to be ridiculed for being "anti-HUD." I also know why. Most of the people here are ethical people and they use a HUD so when someone claims using a HUD is a form of cheating the take it personally, which is very understandable.

Now, let me confess that I have never used a HUD (partly because after black Friday I don't play real money and pre-BF I did not need it) but I have seen what it does and know a little about it.

So my question

Does a HUD give an advantage to the person who uses it?

Well obviously it does, or people wouldn't buy it. (Can we agree on that?) if we can't then this whole argument will not work.

Is that advantage unfair?

Well some of you will say no, because everybody has the chance to buy it and it is not limited to the few elite. It does not change the odds. It does not make your decisions, it does not change the cards or the result of the hand and all the information is already available if you bother to do it yourself. How am I doing so far?

Well I will say yes, it is an unfair advantage.

Just because everybody has the chance to buy it does not make that fair. It is a luxury that you have to pay for. I know this is extreme but if someone can't afford to pay the $50 then it unfair to that person economically. It also unfair to the recreational players that are looking to improve their game and not to win, the shouldn't have to drop 50 dollars to be in the same league as everybody else but unless the do then they're at a disadvantage. Its unfair to people that are new to poker and haven't heard of a HUD. Why? because they shouldn't have to drop 50 bucks to be equal to everybody. It is not economically fair to the poor and it is not fair because it gives people an advantage before any card have been dealt. Previously

I have seen this discussion be sidetracked by the price, if you can't afford 50 bucks to improve your game then we shouldn't be forced not to. (that's a different argument, and not what I am trying say). My question is it an advantage that you have to pay for? Not whether is it an advantage that everybody can pay for.

Does it change the odds? No a flush will come or won't come the same % of the time. Does it change the results of the hand? No, the winning hand always wins, the losing hands always losses. (at the showdown, lets not argue about schematics)

Does it make your decisions?

No, it does not. It does however, influence your decisions. It will influence you to fold against a certain type of player and shove against a certain type of player. It will change how you play a hand which you would of otherwise played if you did not have a HUD. During any one hand you can't be sure if that is +EV or -EV but over the long run it is most likely (almost always likely) to make your play +EV. So it affects how you play, which gives an economic advantage to your opponents that don't use a HUD. Which to me, is not fair. Since your not doing that yourself but letting something else do for you, its is unfair.

All the information you have is available to you if you actually take the time to do it yourself.

Yes, the big thing there is "you actually take the time to do it yourself" Most people don't take the time to do it themselves and wouldn't do it if there was no such thing as a HUD. (although unproven, very true and I think we both can accept that). In addition to that, it is something else that doing all your work, your just reaping the benefits. Its not an personal advantage that you gave yourself, it is a given advantage that you managed to buy. Finally, and one of my biggest points, it is super human, it does mathematics and gives you accurate results while playing your current session per hand, that a human could only do in hindsight, No human can do that and lets not lie to ourselves about that. It has perfect memory, no human has that (except for few occurrences that are statistically insignificant). It will always be mathematically correct, no human is always mathematically correct. It gives the people who use it a superhuman analyzing advantage which is unfair to anybody who plays without it.

@ seachicken, you don't have to deposit online to play for real money online. You can be a live player that knows of HUDs and how the work.

forgive my grammar and spelling mistakes.

Let the ridiculing begin.

If you just play 1 or 2 tables then you dont need a HUD. HUDs are for multi-tablers.

If you dont want to multi-table then you dont have to. Rec players generally play 1 or 2 tables anyways. They dont need a HUD.

Notes are far more important than stats. Everyone has the ability to take notes.

I would bet if multi-tablers played 1 or 2 tables without a HUD they would be just fine.

I won't quote prepare, it is just 2 posts down.

Prepare, I like that you presented a detail of YOUR logic. It was once my logic. I disagree with you. Also keep in mind that until a significant # of hands are observed, they offer no real tell about other players. Many ring guys will say hundreds of hands are necessary to get a tell, being a tourney guy, I use it for 'this session only' reads (last 50 hands or so). Both methods are unreliable, but as per below, they allow my soon to be dementia impaired mind to cope.

The advantage you speak of is memory. With many distractions in the house, memory becomes strained, but I could still use the easiest of written notes to judge whether and how a player is loose or tight. Someone else did the legwork, and did it well on how to make some of those judgments.

I found it was a worthwhile tool to use. Like a carpenter using a hammer rather than his fist to pound that ****ing nail in...time after time after time. In time he develops callouses, like we who use HUDS to remind ourselves stop referring to the HUDs because we have the reads from just sitting at the tables.

HUDs are convenience, that's all. The trackers primary usage is for post play self analysis. Each of us (should be) storing our HH's, and pouring over the hands looking for our own leaks. Nasty business that. Trackers simplify that.

I used to argue those same points. Not as elegantly as you have, but then I got a tracker, and found I could play basically my same game on more tables at the same time. Being old still keeps the # of tables down, but it is a bit easier.

So rather than being hawk eyed staring at my screen, scribbling unintelligible notes to myself, I let the tracker, and HUD to the legwork for me.

Your argument boils down to one of focus. Do I allow distractions to limit my play, or do I use a tool to help me focus? Closing a door might be considered a similar tool, or headphones, or staying single all alone in my world.

Now add in the 'live poker' argument, and how there are no HUDs in live poker, and the trackers become a sort of online training tool. Are you then arguing for no training allowed? If so, in the extreme, even learning how to play the game would not be allowed.

prepare said:

Well I will say yes, it is an unfair advantage.

Just because everybody has the chance to buy it does not make that fair. It is a luxury that you have to pay for. I know this is extreme but if someone can't afford to pay the $50 then it unfair to that person economically. It also unfair to the recreational players that are looking to improve their game and not to win, the shouldn't have to drop 50 dollars to be in the same league as everybody else but unless the do then they're at a disadvantage. Its unfair to people that are new to poker and haven't heard of a HUD. Why? because they shouldn't have to drop 50 bucks to be equal to everybody. It is not economically fair to the poor and it is not fair because it gives people an advantage before any card have been dealt. Previously

I have seen this discussion be sidetracked by the price, if you can't afford 50 bucks to improve your game then we shouldn't be forced not to. (that's a different argument, and not what I am trying say). My question is it an advantage that you have to pay for? Not whether is it an advantage that everybody can pay for.

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Very well put post showing your logic, but I disagree with a big part of it. The entire section above could be ported to just about anything and it comes right back to the problem with entitlements that everyone(especially in the US) has and think they should get.

You think you should automatically be given the exact same thing as the person next to you. In this instance it is tracking software, but it could just as easily be a college degree vs someone you are going against in a job interview who has a GED; football cleats on a muddy game day; a car instead of a bike to get to work... An advantage is going to go to the person who is able to have the things that make them perform better. Is it unfair? No! It IS available to anyone who wants it. Is it necessary to win at poker? Hell no. About a quarter of my sessions I play away from my primary computer which I have HEM installed on and I still have no problem turning a profit in those sessions any more than the sessions when I have my HUD up and running. Why? Because I know how to play poker and I don't donk my chips off on stupid ass plays like many of the types of people you're talking about.

A HUD will not turn a terrible losing player into a winning one, but if you have the basics of poker down(not just what hands are, but what you should and shouldn't be playing, most micro players don't know this) then you can turn a profit, and you will be able to afford tracking software. Just like in the above examples, if you want to get that fair advantage, it is your responsibility, if you want to walk to work, keep at it.

brank said:

If you just play 1 or 2 tables then you dont need a HUD. HUDs are for multi-tablers.

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So... a HUD allows you to play above your abilities?

Bottom line for me (with apologies to the enervate seachicken) is that it affects your betting, and thus the action. And if it doesn't, why use it?

This is strictly against the rules. Really no argument here. Black and white.


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JusSumguy said:

So... a HUD allows you to play above your abilities?

Bottom line for me (with apologies to the enervate seachicken) is that it affects your betting, and thus the action. And if it doesn't, why use it?

This is strictly against the rules. Really no argument here. Black and white.


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There is absolutely no chance whatsoever that this is black and white. If it was it would be banned by the sites. They ban some things, but they don't ban HUDs. Your mind might be made up, which is fair enough, but it's still not black and white, sorry.

JusSumguy said:

So... a HUD allows you to play above your abilities?

Bottom line for me (with apologies to the enervate seachicken) is that it affects your betting, and thus the action. And if it doesn't, why use it?

This is strictly against the rules. Really no argument here. Black and white.


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Nobody is forcing you to play a ton of tables.

How about you tell me how it is changing my betting?

If you dont get it now then you wont ever I guess. That or you're just trolling.

It definitely affects my betting, but sometimes I wonder whether I take too much notice of it. I mainly play tournaments, and I had about 200 hands on a guy with stats of 12/1, and it's unusual for me to have 200 hands on tournament opponents.

He went AIPF UTG and I was thinking that with 1% PFR over 200 hands it was probably AA, KK, QQ or AK.

Anyway I folded, somebody called him and it was actually AJ. So the statistics are only a rough guideline, as others here have said.

JusSumguy said:

So... a HUD allows you to play above your abilities?

Bottom line for me (with apologies to the enervate seachicken) is that it affects your betting, and thus the action. And if it doesn't, why use it?

This is strictly against the rules. Really no argument here. Black and white.


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Don't have a problem with you asking question or posting opinion just how you acted in your first couple post in this thread.

When it comes to HUD's they will not be banned. Poker sites don't want them banned because they help generate more rake. Players that generate the most rake don't want them banned because they increase there ROI by playing more tables.

I was first a live player and when i found out about HUD's i felt they were cheating. (black and white) But as i thought about them more and used one i came to understand that they are just another tool in becoming a better poker player. Does a HUD allow you do things you couldn't without one. YES. But everyone has the same opportunity to use a HUD. The logic that everyone doesn't know about them doesn't work for me or you can't afford one. This is poker. You are playing a game for money. If you don't have the money don't play. A HUD isn't going to make you a better player until you put in the time to understand and learn from your mistakes. A HUD doesn't tell you what to do in any situation. It just displays facts. You as a thinking human have to decide what to do with the information. I don't agree that they are only for multitableing. Even playing single table it gives you access to information that can make a deference.

I hate to tell you that poker books have made the game 10x harder than the invention of a HUD.

Well first, I want to say sorry that I am taking this long to reply. After this I got sick and then completely forgot that I posted.

In this post I am not going to argue for a position. I already did that and I don't want to just keep repeating what I believe. You know what I believe, and you know why. You just don't agree with the why which also means that you disagree with the what.

My belief

I rather have:
nobody have a HUD than a few people have a HUD
nobody have a HUD than everybody have a HUD

However, as long as something is legal and ethical, then my personal belief should not prevent you from doing something that you want to do.

So are HUD's legal?
yes

Are the ethical?
well that's subjective, but mostly yes.

So basically my belief is my belief and although its (sometimes) fun to argue, it really shouldn't change the way things are done. I think that you guys have every right to use a HUD and that my dislike for it shouldn't mean that it should be banned from poker. So by every means, go ahead and use a HUD. Make it improve your play and make you money. It is entirely ethical.

Do I still feel that HUD's give an unfair advantage? yes, but it is still ethical.

That advantage is the reason why I dislike HUD's but since it both legal and ethical..... (you know what I am going to write here) ..... and if anything, you should be happy, just because of my stubborn belief if we ever meet at a table you will be at a slight advantage.

Also DJ, you asked about poker books. There is a way my argument could also make me "anti-books" but since you have to extract the information yourself and put it in practice yourself, its not the same. Also, books mainly tell you whats wrong with your play, not what is wrong with your opponents play.