$8,8 NL HE MTT: GTO

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Geo90

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Table Format
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8,8
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This was a straight race, not bounties.

Here, GTO wrote all-in, but is it really a good play to go all-in with 32 BB after 2 raises?

Here, the GTO fold range is no longer there, but I don't think many weaker hands will fold here. The CO could have raised wide, but the BTN's range suggests a strong hand.


888Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 1,000/2,000 (250 ante) - 7 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

Diego_Marcos (UTG): 62,465 (31 bb)
Eiffel (MP): 81,585 (41 bb)
Jumbomcgee (MP+1): 15,590 (8 bb)
Elquelele (CO): 43,252 (22 bb)
Bit_ok (BU): 72,390 (36 bb)
pastrana19 (SB): 87,041 (44 bb)
Gyurika90 (BB): 65,603 (33 bb)

Pre-Flop: (4,750) Hero (Gyurika90) is BB with Q♣ J♣
3 players fold, Elquelele (CO) raises to 4,200, Bit_ok (BU) 3-bets to 10,600, 1 fold, Gyurika90 (BB) folds, Elquelele (CO) 4-bets to 43,002 (all-in), Bit_ok (BU) calls 32,402

Flop: (90,754) Q♦ J♦ 3♥ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (90,754) 4♠ (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (90,754) K♥ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: 90,754

Showdown:
Elquelele (CO) shows 5♦ 5♠ (a pair of Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 19%, Flop: 13%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

Bit_ok (BU) shows A♥ A♠ (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 81%, Flop: 87%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

Bit_ok (BU) wins 90,754
 
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fundiver199

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The solver obviously assume, that both opponents play a GTO strategy. If they are opening / 3-betting tight and/or calling to much to a 4-bet jam, then hands at the bottom of our range might become unprofitable to jam. But at least against GTO-opponents and with the assumptions plugged into the program, then QJs is in fact a profitable 4-bet jam.

I might not always find this jam in real time, and its important to remember, that we are rarely leaving a ton of value on the table by being a little tight and folding the bottom of our range. So its not like, folding here is a major blunder. But if you also start folding hands like AQ, KQs or TT, then it becomes an issue, unless you have HUD-data on BTN showing a very low 3-bet percentage over a large sample.

Finally since this is a pure push-fold spot, I will say, that ICMizer is a better tool to analyse it. In ICMizer you can put in the actual stack sizes instead of just giving everyone 30BB, you can also put in the payout structure, and you can manually lock the opponents ranges, if you think, they are deviating from GTO.
 
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Geo90

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fundiver199 said:
The solver obviously assume, that both opponents play a GTO strategy. If they are opening / 3-betting tight and/or calling to much to a 4-bet jam, then hands at the bottom of our range might become unprofitable to jam. But at least against GTO-opponents and with the assumptions plugged into the program, then QJs is in fact a profitable 4-bet jam.

I might not always find this jam in real time, and its important to remember, that we are rarely leaving a ton of value on the table by being a little tight and folding the bottom of our range. So its not like, folding here is a major blunder. But if you also start folding hands like AQ, KQs or TT, then it becomes an issue, unless you have HUD-data on BTN showing a very low 3-bet percentage over a large sample.

Finally since this is a pure push-fold spot, I will say, that ICMizer is a better tool to analyse it. In ICMizer you can put in the actual stack sizes instead of just giving everyone 30BB, you can also put in the payout structure, and you can manually lock the opponents ranges, if you think, they are deviating from GTO.
Click to expand...
Okay, thank you, that's a good point of view. That's how I should approach the GTO, adjusting to my opponent's play. Here, they'll never 3-bet or 4-bet enough, and I don't think the QJS throw was too tight.

I left out an important piece of information: we were around 45 and it paid from 39th place, which is why I didn't want to take the risk.

Maybe I should pay for some kind of program to get accurate information about these situations on ICM or HCR.
 
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fundiver199

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Geo90 said:
I left out an important piece of information: we were around 45 and it paid from 39th place, which is why I didn't want to take the risk.
Click to expand...
You have more fold equity near the bubble, because if BTN (the most important player here) call and lose, he is left with just 3BB and almost out of the tournament. So if anything your GTO jamming range might become a bit wider due to the ICM pressure, while his calling range become more narrow.
Geo90 said:
Maybe I should pay for some kind of program to get accurate information about these situations on ICM or HCR.
Click to expand...
ICMizer is definitely a valuable tool for SnGs and MTT final tables.
 
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Geo90

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fundiver199 said:
You have more fold equity near the bubble, because if BTN (the most important player here) call and lose, he is left with just 3BB and almost out of the tournament. So if anything your GTO jamming range might become a bit wider due to the ICM pressure, while his calling range become more narrow.

ICMizer is definitely a valuable tool for SnGs and MTT final tables.
Click to expand...
Thank you, so I should think about it the way I thought :)

Then maybe I'll invest in ICMizer, it has a 7-day trial version, so I'll try it out :)
 
amonlima

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Don't get hung up on those details; that's a high-stack concept. In micro-stakes, that play is completely unprofitable. The 55-card showdown itself demonstrates how unprofitable it is. You have to adapt to the field you're playing in.
 
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fundiver199

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amonlima said:
Don't get hung up on those details; that's a high-stack concept. In micro-stakes, that play is completely unprofitable. The 55-card showdown itself demonstrates how unprofitable it is. You have to adapt to the field you're playing in.
Click to expand...
Just because CO 4-bet jammed 55, does not mean, he would also have called a cold 4-bet jam with the same hand. The ranges for those two situations are wildly different. CO is a winning player up almost $20k over 6.640 tournaments, so your suggestion, that this is a fishy "microstakes" play, is quite far off. Most likely this is actually a GTO jam by him or at least so close, its not a real mistake.

 
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amonlima said:
Don't get hung up on those details; that's a high-stack concept. In micro-stakes, that play is completely unprofitable. The 55-card showdown itself demonstrates how unprofitable it is. You have to adapt to the field you're playing in.
Click to expand...
It's true that not many people will make such moves at micro stakes, but I'm just trying to understand GTO so that I can apply it when I play at higher stakes later on.

Micron, if I played GTO, it would probably be unprofitable.
 
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fundiver199

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Geo90 said:
but I'm just trying to understand GTO so that I can apply it when I play at higher stakes later on.
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A $8.8 MTT is considered low stakes not micro stakes, and as I wrote already, CO is a strong winning regular. So the idea, you should have adjusted to playing against some clueless fish in this particular hand, is totally wrong.
 
eetenor

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Geo90 said:
View attachment 396583
Click to expand...
When studying GTO WIZARD as a guideline the Chart for us is the least valuable on it's own- The reason is we are not looking at the why of the action we take with this chart.
We need to see the other charts to know why.

The BTN chart especially crucial here 30bbs
1764805554753

This is why we can shove QJs---as we saw in your game this is not even close to what BTN does in real life without RTA

we also want to be aware that effective stack of the opener plays a big part in BTN GTO range-- CO has 22bb not 30

At 25bb BTN chart

1764805764963
Your chart

1764805852930

whenever we study GTO WIZARD free version we want to look at all these variables

CO chart for their hand at 25bb after BTN raise

1764806071666
1764806148450 this is 30bb ---however remember the BTN GTO charts do not rep real life players.

Last thing you are going to want to do is study what your V are folding when you Jam at 30bb that is the second factor that makes the QJs become effective--we need both factors fewer big pairs-fewer suited AX fewer KXs in BTN range and they call less than 2% of all hands-not their range when we jam vs their 2.8% of range that raises.

:unsure::geek:
 
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Geo90

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eetenor said:
Amikor a GTO WIZARD-ot útmutatóként tanulmányozzuk, a táblázat önmagában a legkevésbé értékes - ennek az az oka, hogy nem vizsgáljuk meg a táblázat segítségével végrehajtott műveleteink okait.
Látnunk kell a többi diagramot is, hogy megértsük, miért.

A BTN grafikon különösen fontos itt 30bbs-nél
View attachment 397857

Ezért tudunk QJ-ket all-in ütni – ahogy a játékodban is láttuk, ez közel sem olyan, mint amit a BTN a való életben RTA nélkül csinál.

Azt is szeretnénk tudni, hogy a nyitó ütő hatékony stackje nagy szerepet játszik a BTN GTO sorozatban – a CO 22bb-s, nem 30-as.

25bb BTN grafikonon

View attachment 397858
A diagramod

View attachment 397860

Amikor a GTO WIZARD ingyenes verzióját tanulmányozzuk, ezeket a változókat mind figyelembe akarjuk venni.

CO-diagram a lapjukról 25bb-n BTN emelés után

View attachment 397861
View attachment 397862 ez 30bb ---azonban ne feledd, hogy a BTN GTO listák nem a valós játékosokat tükrözik.

Az utolsó dolog, amit tenned kell, az az, hogy megvizsgálod, hogy a V-d milyen lapokat dob, amikor 30bb-n all-in mész, ez a második tényező, ami miatt a QJ-k hatékonyak – mindkét tényezőre szükségünk van: kevesebb nagy pár, kevesebb egyszínű AX, kevesebb KX a BTN skálában, és az összes kéz kevesebb, mint 2%-át tartják meg – nem a skálájukra, amikor all-in megyünk, szemben a skálájuk 2,8%-ával, amelyik emel.

:bizonytalan::geek:
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Thank you for the detailed description. GTO is a whole new world, there is a lot to learn. There is an MTT study plan up there, I just started, but the beginning is hard for me:)
 
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