How to play when MTT gets shove happy?

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clavio

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  • #1
Last night I was playing a mtt. When it got down to about 120 players there was at least one shove every hand. Is there any guide on how to play in these situations? I eventually called with 55. I was against AT and didn't hold up which severly crippled me.
 
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gopnik885

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  • #2
first of all don't shove with 55, wait for monster hand also don't forget that with each shove the field is getting smaller and smaller...
 
c9h13no3

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  • #3
Clavio, I mean this with as much respect as I can muster, but you don't know how to play short stacked MTT's.

Open shoving preflop is absolutely standard when your M level gets down to 10 or less. Do a little research on stuff like "M levels" or push/fold high blind play. Other posts have laid all this stuff out before. But the general idea is that by shoving all in, you get a big chance to win the blinds without showdown, which is a large portion of your stack at this point. You should be shoving a lot when your chances to win the blinds are high, and calling very little.
 
cjatud2012

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  • #4
gopnik885 said:
first of all don't shove with 55, wait for monster hand also don't forget that with each shove the field is getting smaller and smaller...

What?

In general, you need a much stronger hand to call an all-in than you need to shove all-in. Therefore, I would say it is correct to shove with 55, but incorrect to call with it (as you did in the example you gave). Obviously, there are some situations where calling with 55 is correct, and where shoving with 55 is incorrect.

You can't wait for a monster once the antes kick-in and your M drops low. When your M is 5, any pre-flop raise you make should be an all-in raise. If your M is 3, you should be shoving any two cards if you have good fold equity, based on the blinds (how loose/tight, stack size, etc.).
 
ukaliks

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  • #5
gopnik885 said:
first of all don't shove with 55, wait for monster hand also don't forget that with each shove the field is getting smaller and smaller...

he didnt shove, he called. When ur in a MTT and its late ur gonna get alot of shover bcos its the best strat for a short stacker.

Alot of SS'ers will shove with A2+, 22+ and possibly KJo etc. So when u get alot of idiots shoving, 55 isnt that bad. Its a race if ur facing 2 over cards. But u've gotta take that gamble and try hold up. Just unlucky mate.
 
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  • #6
I don't know what happened to me but all of a sudden I'm calling shoves with crap like 66 and small aces. Took myself out of a couple SNG's that way. I usually like to wait for premium hands or for the dust to settle before mixing it up in a push fest.

-Raymond
 
superman4all

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  • #7
In this situation you want to tighten up your play and let everyone else take eachother out ecause you continuously make more money the more people get knocked out. But when you catch that monster get your chips in there and hope for a double up
 
cjatud2012

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  • #8
superman4all said:
In this situation you want to tighten up your play and let everyone else take eachother out ecause you continuously make more money the more people get knocked out. But when you catch that monster get your chips in there and hope for a double up

You will get completely run over playing this way. Guaranteed. Besides, how much more money will you make by being passive and folding? imo it's worth taking a risk and playing aggressive for top three prize money.
 
ukaliks

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  • #9
cjatud2012 said:
You will get completely run over playing this way. Guaranteed. Besides, how much more money will you make by being passive and folding? imo it's worth taking a risk and playing aggressive for top three prize money.

+1.

I understand a couple of people's post sayin that 66 is crap, wait for premium hands and let other ppl donk out and u move up the prize ladder!

This wont do if u want to make it to a final table or the top 3 of a huge MTT. U've gotta take risks and u need to keep on accumulate chips. Sitting back folding waiting for that premium will take huge dents out of stack with blinds increasing very big in the late stages.

U've gotta take risks on poeple who r gettin shove happy. So take a gamble with ur 55, ur a small fave over 2 unpaired cards.
** 55: 54%
** AT: 46%

Small edge that when he misses u make more chips for a shot at the final table.
 
Worak

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  • #10
To give you a very general idea about what my general line in late stages of MTTs is:

I take notes on every shown hand (HEM or PT will do that for you if you have it).

I assign shoving ranges to opponents:

For calling shoves I wait for situations were I'm:
  • ahead of his shoving range (even 55/45)
  • likely to be heads-up (late position, nitty/tight opponents to act after me)
  • jam it
For example: Villain has shoved Q10o, 44, A3o, A8o, 10,9s.

Assuming he will go with anything stronger than that his shoving range is:

Any Ax, any pp, any connecting face cards, any suited connectors 10,9+


Run poker stove over this and see what beats that range:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.603% 45.15% 00.46% 1989766224 20151474.00 { 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 1: 54.397% 53.94% 00.46% 2377401324 20151474.00 { 66 }
 
Worak

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  • #11
grafkarow said:
To give you a very general idea about what my general line in late stages of MTTs is:

I take notes on every shown hand (HEM or PT will do that for you if you have it).

I assign shoving ranges to opponents:

For calling shoves I wait for situations were I'm:
  • ahead of his shoving range (even 55/45)
  • likely to be heads-up (late position, nitty/tight opponents to act after me)
  • jam it
For example: Villain has shoved Q10o, 44, A3o, A8o, 10,9s.

Assuming he will go with anything stronger than that his shoving range is:

Any Ax, any pp, any connecting face cards Qx+, any suited connectors 10,9+

Run poker stove over this and see what beats that range:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.603% 45.15% 00.46% 1989766224 20151474.00 { 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s , Q10o+, A2o+}
Hand 1: 54.397% 53.94% 00.46% 2377401324 20151474.00 { 66 }

Edited... changed the hands I put in pokerstove but didn't edit text.
 
salim271

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  • #12
Alright, the way i see it is no you cant just fold and let other people duke it out because of the blinds and antes. But shoving with anything even with an M less than 10 can hurt as well, yes you can double up but you cant just shove from any position every time you get an ace.

I hate shoving from early and middle position, I'll do it if i get something good but i really try and take all of my risks from late position. the only time i like shoving from middle position is when there is no bigstack to my left, and the blinds are medium stacked across from me. I never like to shove from early position and wont do it unless the blinds will severely cripple me.

Here is my basic strategy, from late position with a medium stack you can shove with almost anything imo, anything suited, pocket pairs, small aces and of course anything thats really good as well. Even in a shovefest if you're the first one entering the pot from late position you have a great chance at taking it down right there. Everyone seems to think omggg we have to double up shove with any ace. The blinds and antes are growing so large though that they alone can improve your stack significantly.

Situation:

150 people left, you have 80,000 chips, medium stacked, 3000/6000 blinds, ante 750. M = 80,000/ 3000 + 6000 + 750x9 (nine person table) = 5.08.

Say every 2 rotations you steal 3 times, twice with marginal hands and once with a good hand. If the blinds and antes stayed the same, for every two rotations your stack would go up 1 BB, 1 SB and 1 Ante pack. 3000 + 6000 + 6750 = 15750. Your chip stack is then 95,750, after three rotations say you then picked up kings or something, instead of shoving you make a 2.5xBB raise from early middle position, a shorter stack of about 60,000 shoves and you call them down and win. Say you didnt steal at all those three rotations and just waited on those kings, 3 rotations without the blinds and antes going up would have decreased your stack to 32750 and in deep trouble. If you had gotten those same kings you would have only doubled up to about 64000 chips instead of getting a big stack of about 170,000 chips.

This is all from stealing 3 times in 18 hands, now its impossible to tell when someone will wake up with a hand in the BB, we cant help that, but we DONT want them to call, get your chips in with a good hand and get them in first from good position. You dont have to shove from any position with something like AT, or call with 55.

Also I'm sure some of you are like people are eventually going to pick up a 'big' hand and kill us. Yes this is true, but remember we only stole 3 times. Once was with a hand like AK and the other two were just plain steals. We did it from position, Button or CO, so only 2 or 3 people could go ahead of us. Thats a lot less people to possibly have a hand. You'll never be certain, but its poker, never being certain is just about the only certainty preflop.
 
dufferdevon

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  • #13
One piece of advice that has VASTLY improved my shove/fold game is to target the stacks that you have covered. In your example, if it was a shorter stack than yours, calling with 55 and hoping for a race is o.k. (I would rather be the one pushing 55 than calling with it). If it is a stack bigger than yours, fold the 55.

When the short stacks are the blinds, steal, but only if you are first in the pot. And make sure its hand that can make something if you get called. Don't shove 8-3 just because you are the button and the book says so. Hands like 9-T, K-5s, etc...
 
dj11

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  • #14
c9h13no3 said:
You should be shoving a lot when your chances to win the blinds are high, and calling very little.

As your M gets below 10, your fold equity (ability to make the other guy think twice before calling) decreases in the late stages.
 
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  • #15
No Definitive Guide

To answer your question, there is no written or definitive guides on how to play in these situations. There are some excellent answers in this thread that should help you immensley. These plays are likely the most important ones you make to get to the final table. You will eventually get a better feel for the stratagies posted here. Remember, even if you become proficient with these decisions, you cannot overcome the luck of the draw. You will get busted many times when you find yourself in these situations. Obviously, getting ahead early and keeping yourself out of these situations as much as possible is the best solution.
 
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