Hyper turbo guide thread

[BearPlay]

Oh I know but it was more of a joke about how few games she has played even against a really small sample such as 5k

Does the fact that I understand your tongue-in-cheek humor make me just as twisted?

 

[Jblocher1]

Does the fact that I understand your tongue-in-cheek humor make me just as twisted?

Yeah you are twisted fo sho

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

But again, for both of the spots you guys posted, knowing what ranges to play and how to adjust them takes a lot of effort off the tables. If you guys are serious about hypers, it'd be a valuable experience to start constructing a shove/fold chart. Even though it would never be a good idea to blindly follow the chart you make, actually going through the process of making one will teach you a lot about what types of hands you want to be playing and how to adjust to different opponents..

I copied and pasted this quote from the other hyper thread.

Ok. my question is about constructing a shove/fold chart. This is probably a dumb question and something I'm already supposed to know...but I don't know how to do that.

I mean, I know what they are and how to reference them. I have several nash charts by my computer for use at certain stack sizes, but I assume you mean making one all on my own from scratch like a big girl, to be specifically used for Hyper 6max SnGs....right?

would I use software to assist me, like excel and SnG wizard? what types of info am I using to decide whether or not a certain shove is profitable?

if you don't mind....'splain it to me like I'm 5 years old.

I'm quite interested in doing this.

I was required to make a "chord wheel" in piano class when I was 9 years old and the lesson has stuck with me to this day, I can still play any chord or variation even though it's been 20+ years since I had a piano lesson, so I'm totally convinced of the value of figuring out these things for oneself.

 

[BearPlay]

Ok, here we go, JB... do we get to talk about DON's here?

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

OK, I have another question. I think I have a problem with small pocket pairs. my jamming range is no problem, my calling range is probably a bit too wide.

here's another thing that I've been doing that is probably wrong.

A super short stack jams for like 1.5 or 2 bbs.

I have a stack of about 8-12 bbs and a small pocket pair (22-55) in the button or SB and I jam over the top to isolate...but I've been getting called ridiculously light by the BB in these cases and then I end up facing 3 or 4 overs...so I must be doing something wrong...thoughts?

should we not be calling all-ins with small pocket pairs because we have no fold equity on our side and we're usually flipping?

 

[helpspb]

Yay, what a great thread. Gonna follow this one. Hypers are one of my fave games and i still need to learn a lot about them.

 

[DonkeyH3AD]

I think PS stucture are better 300 with 15/30 b is definitly to sharp
on stars you can min raise in early position where is 500 stack is ok 300 is not enought

 

[WiZZiM]

OK, I have another question. I think I have a problem with small pocket pairs. my jamming range is no problem, my calling range is probably a bit too wide.

here's another thing that I've been doing that is probably wrong.

A super short stack jams for like 1.5 or 2 bbs.

I have a stack of about 8-12 bbs and a small pocket pair (22-55) in the button or SB and I jam over the top to isolate...but I've been getting called ridiculously light by the BB in these cases and then I end up facing 3 or 4 overs...so I must be doing something wrong...thoughts?

should we not be calling all-ins with small pocket pairs because we have no fold equity on our side and we're usually flipping?

against a 1-2BB stack we can iso-shove very wide, shoving all pairs totally fine in most spots, it really depends on the dynamic however.. Keep in mind card distribution is a bitch so it might seem like you get called in spots all the time, but in the long run it should even out. And also keep in mind that our brains tend to think about hands that stand out, you never really notice the times we jam over and bb folds and we win. but you sure as hell remember when we shove into pocket Aces and we get bubbled somehow.

The biggest leak i see in players starting out is not shoving wide enough, and not taking enough risks to get a stack before the bubble hits.

 

[matt0216]

would I use software to assist me, like excel and SnG wizard? what types of info am I using to decide whether or not a certain shove is profitable?

Yeah, you'd need to use some sort of icm calculator + excel. I've never really used sng wiz that much as there are better options out there now. I mostly use icmizer and think it's the easiest of them all to figure out, but sng solver is another good one imo.

Once you have the software, you'd pretty much just go through each spot. So, for example, you'd construct a range for utg at different stack depths then do the same for other positions.

For each scenario, just take your time and think about the ranges you expect to see villains shoving/calling with. Now, I definitely understand that putting villains on ranges for all these different spots is tough, but that's part of the learning process. Once you have the ranges for the villains set, the software will calculate a profitable shoving/calling range based on the info you entered. Also, after you're done with your chart, you should continually refine it as you gain more experience.

Your goal is to just end with a chart that gives you a good baseline in the games you play. One of the things you want to make sure you're paying attention to as you make it is how changing a villains range impacts your range. This will help you make adjustments in game when you run into a villain who is playing tighter/wider than what you normally expect.

 

[BearPlay]

Well I guess you'd just need shoving and calling, no need for a specific folding range, that can just be assumed from your shoving range. I have my shoving ranges for different stack sizes/position in one table and then in another I have my calling ranges. I don't really look at them when I play anymore, but they're still good to have and refer back to if needed

When a player is deepstack, a min raise can mean a lot of things. The first thing I'd look for is whether or not there's another big stack in play. So say you're at 15/30 and two stacks are at 600, I think it'd be perfectly reasonable for that player to want to open to 60 rather than jamming 20BB. In that scenario, I'd expect the raiser to call off any shove from the shorter stacks though.

You're right about the fold equity though and opening to 2BB against certain players would be really bad. I mean if you're raise folding a ton pre that's just terrible in these games, but there are definitely times where it's OK.

Other than that, you're also right that's it's very player player dependent lol. If you see a reg doing it a lot, you'd be able to figure out what they're doing pretty quickly, but you also might realize they're only min raising against certain players and against other regs they'll probably just jam, thus utilizing they're fold equity.

Solid points here, Matt, thanks. I neglected to clarify that all of the starting stacks at Carbon are 300, thus my interest about the min-raises. I'm beginning to see that a lot of deepstacks are exploiting ultra-tight players with these.

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

ima subbing since I'm playing hypers and all......all i will say for now is that A7 keeps beating my bigger aces and 77 just keeps beating me lol.........however i know its a variance thing with these and volume is key which I think I could put in a ton if I was playing hypers only.........played mostly hypers last night as got stuck a bunch early on and did some recovery but still red the last couple of nights.

GL all

 

[fishinthesea]

Wow thanks a lot for this guide. I've been trying to play the $2.20 and $1.10 hyper turbos on carbon but I always lose my entire bank roll haha. I'm not playing it without 100+ BI's.

 

[Jblocher1]

ima subbing since I'm playing hypers and all......all i will say for now is that A7 keeps beating my bigger aces and 77 just keeps beating me lol.........however i know its a variance thing with these and volume is key which I think I could put in a ton if I was playing hypers only.........played mostly hypers last night as got stuck a bunch early on and did some recovery but still red the last couple of nights.



GL all

You are waaaaay to good to be red long term at these.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

ok. some more questions...thoughts...whatevs

min raising...seems Ok in the first level and sometimes the 2nd level when you have AA,KK,AK....no? the one I am most curious about is the AK. I've done it a couple of times and gotten shoved on by worse aces and snapped off and it worked out pretty sweet.

anyways...I think I like that better than the idea of limping them. I'd rather min raise the AA,KK and limp the AK if I had to split it up, but for simplicity sake I'd think min raising all of them is OK since we're perfectly happy to call any preflop shove and we're perfectly happy to get it in on most flops.


another question is occasionally you get at one of those limpy tables. people are limping with hands as strong as AT/AJ/AQ sometimes. I've noted these players as I've come across them. what if I have a playable hand in my SB such as J9s for example and there are 1 or 2 limpers ahead of me in the first level. Seems like limping here might be ok?

anyways I have limped a couple of times in my SB in these spots and then check-folded or jammed on favorable flops, and on REALLY favorable flops check-raised all in.

both of these topics I discuss are still rare, but they do come up every 8-9 hyper tourneys or so...I'm just making sure i'm thinking about them correctly.

 

[WiZZiM]

ok. some more questions...thoughts...whatevs

min raising...seems Ok in the first level and sometimes the 2nd level when you have AA,KK,AK....no? the one I am most curious about is the AK. I've done it a couple of times and gotten shoved on by worse aces and snapped off and it worked out pretty sweet. Depends on your table, if they are all unknowns or all unlikely to be regs, then min-raising all these hands is a great way to play them. Against solid regs who you play alot, your going to want to either min-raise a polarized range, or just shove the top of your range, again, it all depends on the stack setup.

anyways...I think I like that better than the idea of limping them. I'd rather min raise the AA,KK and limp the AK if I had to split it up, but for simplicity sake I'd think min raising all of them is OK since we're perfectly happy to call any preflop shove and we're perfectly happy to get it in on most flops.
i prefer to limp the AA/KK, because we can actually play them pretty easily postflop, AK also plays kind of easy, but why not just take a +EV jam instead of getting tricky. ALso, another advanced play you can try is to raise to a comitting amount, usually around 40-50% of your stack with the intention of getting it in on any flop

another question is occasionally you get at one of those limpy tables. people are limping with hands as strong as AT/AJ/AQ sometimes. I've noted these players as I've come across them. what if I have a playable hand in my SB such as J9s for example and there are 1 or 2 limpers ahead of me in the first level. Seems like limping here might be ok?
Try to note them just as "limpers" not specifically "they limp/trapped with AQ, AJ etc. becuase that note will make you less likely to jam on them in the future. Just label them as a limper, expect them to limp/fold really often, and only note it when they call with something spazzy like Q8off.
anyways I have limped a couple of times in my SB in these spots and then check-folded or jammed on favorable flops, and on REALLY favorable flops check-raised all in.Yep, limping is great, generally you want at least a 10BB stack to make this play, the thing to keep in mind is, If i make a limp/stab will it hurt my overall chances in the tournament if it fails? if the answer is yes, then it's usually best to just take the +EV jam and shove it in preflop. However this is a great play that can be reserved for the aboslute bottom of your shoving range, this will help to limit variance and not let you lose your stack in spots which could be avoided.

both of these topics I discuss are still rare, but they do come up every 8-9 hyper tourneys or so...I'm just making sure i'm thinking about them correctly.They come up often enough to jusitfy thinking a little bit more about for sure.

in regards to shoving over limpers, you really want to tailor your range to be a dominating one if called. so shoving things like 55+ KJ, A8+ etc will be a good starting point, and of course stuff that just runs really good is also fine to shove, the j9s type hands you talk about, some players you can go looser, some you might consider tightening that range. But it's a good one to fall back onto if you are unsure what hands to shove vs random limper type plaeyrs.

 

[BearPlay]

After Matt mentioned Nash, and Jacki was toying with the idea of push/fold charts, I did some research and found this:

http://www.pushfoldcharts.com/6max/

It seems that these push/fold charts were geared towards SS play, but are they a good starting place for HTT which, are in essence, SS play from the get-go?

My initial reaction is that these ranges are a bit wide, but that might be my own nitty bias sneaking in here.

 

[matt0216]

I don't think it'd be a good idea to use those charts. It says they were designed for shortstack play in mtts leading up to the final table using a 90/10 payout structure. 6-max sngs are mostly 65/35 or sometimes 70/30. Also, there's no regard for position so it'd just be confusing.

The other big thing is that these charts ( and most charts you'll find online) use nash ranges and they're just not realistic for most scenarios. It's good to know those ranges because they can be used as a default point to adjust from, but shoving nash ranges would be bad since nobody is playing nash in these games.

You mentioned how you're initial reaction was that these ranges seemed a bit wide and that's one of the reasons why I even brought up these charts in the first place. There will be a ton of spots where the ranges you should be playing are much tighter, or wider than you would expect. The only way to get familiar with those spots is to actually go through the scenarios yourself and construct your own chart using more realistic ranges.

 

[nabmom]

What HUD stats are you guys finding most beneficial to use for the hyper-turbos?

 

[Jblocher1]

What HUD stats are you guys finding most beneficial to use for the hyper-turbos?

I don't run an HUD I'm sure others can help though

 

[BearPlay]

What HUD stats are you guys finding most beneficial to use for the hyper-turbos?

I use a HUD for most games but not for hypers. Not sure how valid those stats would be. I tend to be nitty for most games, but in the hypers not at all.

IMO the HUD stats would be misleading for most players, given the need for more aggression and the virtual nonexistence of post-flop play (consequently, AF isn't really viable), plus the reality that hypers are mostly a shove/fold game (consequently, VPIP and PFR aren't really viable).

I think it's much more important to look at positional plays, as opposed to VPI/PFR/AF.

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

I think vpip/pfr/#ofhands is probably really the only thing that is of value with ht because there is no postflop play. I mean when you have lots of hands on opponents it lets you know if they limp alot in which case you can probably shove wider and steal, or if they have vpip/pfr with a small gap and limp then they might just have a prem hand looking to trap you into shoving.

I like # of hands because with slowely getting in a lot of volume it points out like a couple of hands in (cause it takes that long before my hud comes up usually) as to who are the grinders and who might be just starting out or trying out the ht's..........I think a hud has value no matter the format but with ht's imo you want a good 100 hands min to see a truer vpip/pfr because if running hot someone could easy look like an agrotard with the shove/fold in the hypers.

Have to say I'm enjoying the ht grind, if nothing else they are a nice way to keep up enough tables to keep me from getting bored when ending out a session or set and am down to like 2 tables of reg stt's that are just taking forever.

 

[WiZZiM]

steal % from button/co/small blind, how often players resteal etc. basically all the preflop spots you might encounter should be on your HUD if you play these things long term.

 

[matt0216]

I have vpip/pfr, limp/limp fold, then some steal and fold to steal stats.

Mine is also filtered for # of players.

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

steal % from button/co/small blind, how often players resteal etc. basically all the preflop spots you might encounter should be on your HUD if you play these things long term.

I have vpip/pfr, limp/limp fold, then some steal and fold to steal stats.

Mine is also filtered for # of players.

+1 on both accounts, I still have lots to learn about my hud and pretty much just have minimal on it atm which i use accross the board (vpip/pfr/3bet/cbet/fcbet/#ofhands)........I think this is definately something I need to work on more and did initially have others but found it cluttered my tables too much when I'm tiling 12-16 on one monitor where the tables already have some overlap.

Thanks for the info though, much appreciated......I need to like ban myself from playing for a couple of days or something and take the time to work on some hud configs and learning to properly use my tracker :vroam:

 

[WiZZiM]

you got HEM or PT4?