Limpers who shove when you raise: what to do?

Propane Goat · Nov 16, 2013

I was in this hand recently in a turbo STT where I had AJo in the BB, there was one limper in MP so I raised to 3BB.

Blinds and antes were 0/50/100. I had 17BB, villain had 12BB. Villain then shoved all in. Would you have called here? Or, would you have just checked instead of raising?

What do you do in these situations? I see this quite a bit, and when I'm able to see what people are shoving with it's usually some hand like a low pocket pair, connector, or something like QTo that they were trying to see a cheap flop with.

It's not good enough to raise with but it's good enough to shove when somebody else raises....is this actually a valid strategy I don't know about or is it just a donk play, and how do you handle these situations?

I remember reading somewhere that some players with big stacks will limp AA or KK in early position when blinds are high and there's several short stacks at the table because they're hoping somebody will shove, but that wasn't really the case in this hand. Villain had the shortest stack, but the chip counts were fairly even and the table was still full.

Your thoughts and advice appreciated

fletchdad · Nov 16, 2013

For me its is probably a snap call. Unless I have a read on villain that he is doing this only with AA-QQ, and even then I might talk myself into him still having the odd FE bluff shove in his range. If it wasnt a turbo, then you could maybe fold if you consider his range only premiums.

You now have 14 bb after your raise and it is a turbo. If you fold you will be shoving soon anyway. You have a decent hand vs his range here (I am assuming, since no info on villain) His move looks so strong that there MUST be large amount of FE assumed by villain that I snap call.

I am interested in what others have to say.

mamutmamut · Nov 16, 2013

Well, this depends on with who are you playing. A lot of players do this as ´ a random aggro move´, some players, like you said, do this in the later stages of tournaments with AA, KK, QQ. For me it depends on the dynamic of the table but I limp AA, KK, QQ in the later stages with a big stack a lot. Tables are tight before money bubble (or the final table bubble) so I´m giving them opportunity to shove with hands like A10off or small pocket pairs that would usually fold to my shove. Jacks, tens and AK would call to the shove anyway but I´m trying to catch a very aggressive players to hang themselves. Of course, If table is loose I´m just shoving, that´s for sure.

loomis311 · Nov 16, 2013

Can you give us some info on villian? What is your image? How has the table been playing? Without this info it becomes not so much an educated decision. I would say in general a lot of players do this with big pairs and AK,AQ. But, I also see some players do this middle pocket pairs.

When he shoves, it really sucks. If you fold, you lost a lot of valuable chips and it could have been a coin flip or you could possibly have him dominated. When you call, you can be really dominated and hating life.

To call or fold will always be based on the questions I asked above.

AtiFCOD · Nov 16, 2013

Propane Goat said:
I was in this hand recently in a turbo STT where I had AJo in the BB, there was one limper in MP so I raised to 3BB.

Blinds and antes were 0/50/100. I had 17BB, villain had 12BB. Villain then shoved all in. Would you have called here? Or, would you have just checked instead of raising?

What do you do in these situations? I see this quite a bit, and when I'm able to see what people are shoving with it's usually some hand like a low pocket pair, connector, or something like QTo that they were trying to see a cheap flop with.

It's not good enough to raise with but it's good enough to shove when somebody else raises....is this actually a valid strategy I don't know about or is it just a donk play, and how do you handle these situations?

I remember reading somewhere that some players with big stacks will limp AA or KK in early position when blinds are high and there's several short stacks at the table because they're hoping somebody will shove, but that wasn't really the case in this hand. Villain had the shortest stack, but the chip counts were fairly even and the table was still full.

Your thoughts and advice appreciated

Yeah sometimes ppl just limp with monsters to get raised...but he can be a fish who limps often as a short stack. There is no sollution for this situation. You have to remember what he did before (is he a TAG or LAG, fish or good player etc...)...and after that make your decision.
But I think AJ is usually ok against a 12BB shove range.

blueskies · Nov 16, 2013

I personally only do this occasionally when I have AA KK in early position and I have aggro folks on my left. But I rarely do it.

So you'll have to decide based on the villain image and your image. AJ isn't great against a typical hand that'll go all in. Unless villain is a shove happy idiot I'd lean toward folding here.

lost2qandisa · Nov 16, 2013

As other have said, it depends on the player. I hate it when it happens. Sometimes you make the call. Other times you don't. Then it also depend what type of players are sitting in the other spots. If I know I can make the chips up later to loose / fish players at the table, I will fold and just get the chips back somewhere else.

IPlay · Nov 16, 2013

fletchdad said:
For me its is probably a snap call. Unless I have a read on villain that he is doing this only with AA-QQ, and even then I might talk myself into him still having the odd FE bluff shove in his range. If it wasnt a turbo, then you could maybe fold if you consider his range only premiums.

You now have 14 bb after your raise and it is a turbo. If you fold you will be shoving soon anyway. You have a decent hand vs his range here (I am assuming, since no info on villain) His move looks so strong that there MUST be large amount of FE assumed by villain that I snap call.

I am interested in what others have to say.

This, and everyone donk shoves on Turbos

Arjonius · Nov 16, 2013

There's no perfect way to play the hand, but it seems to me that you could have thought ahead more before you raised. For starters, how likely did you think it was that he'd fold given the pot odds you set for him? Assuming that the probability he'd fold was quite small, his other options were calling to take a flop in position and shoving. Had you thought about what you'd do in these cases?

If he called, you'd miss the flop most of the time. Were you planning to check-fold? If so, it can be argued that you'd be better to check pre- and to see the flop for free. If you were going to cbet after missing, then why give him such pot odds to call pre-, especially since his stack size after calling your raise pre- is shove or fold? And with your stack, could you cbet then fold to a shove?

Also, it's easy if you flop and A. You're going to get it all in if he's willing. But half the time you hit the flop, you'll hit your J. Then what?

As for what to do in the actual situation where he limp-shoved, his stack was right in the range for this. So, you should have known if you were going to call before you raised. And if you were going to call, then why not shove preemptively?

Propane Goat · Nov 16, 2013

I appreciate the help everyone, I had seen the villain raise big on the first hand in EP but he didn't get any action. The rest of the time, he was just limping in here and there and check-folding afterward.

Arjonius has some good points too, my gut feeling when I raised was that it was way too small for being out of position, but I didn't listen and went ahead anyway on top of not thinking through different possibilities.

This was on Bovada, I see people shoving garbage all the time so I was kind of taking that into consideration, although I shouldn't be assuming anything based on generalities.

Anyway, in this case the villain had 44 and I lost the flip.

blueskies · Nov 17, 2013

That is the problem with AJ. If you run into a small PP you'll be a small dog. If you run into AK, AQ, you'll be a big dog. You dominate only for KJ or AT type hand from villain. And of course, if he's stupid enough to limp shove small SCs then you're about 2 to 1.

Propane Goat said:
I appreciate the help everyone, I had seen the villain raise big on the first hand in EP but he didn't get any action. The rest of the time, he was just limping in here and there and check-folding afterward.

Arjonius has some good points too, my gut feeling when I raised was that it was way too small for being out of position, but I didn't listen and went ahead anyway on top of not thinking through different possibilities.

This was on Bovada, I see people shoving garbage all the time so I was kind of taking that into consideration, although I shouldn't be assuming anything based on generalities.

Anyway, in this case the villain had 44 and I lost the flip.

mlgibbs78 · Nov 17, 2013

estimate their range and call with better hands .....

AvaloNNN · Nov 17, 2013

Typical donk move. I used to see this everyday, and they would show up with a wild range of junk hands. Dont give donks to much credit or you could end up losing a lot of value. Just treat everyone at the micros as a random first class donk and you're good.

blueskies · Nov 17, 2013

I just had a guy on SB shove over two limpers. What would you do if you had JJ on BB in this spot?

He's a 63/10 guy pre... I ended up folding , as did the two limpers, and he showed his cards.

fletchdad · Nov 18, 2013

blueskies said:
I just had a guy on SB shove over two limpers. What would you do if you had JJ on BB in this spot?

He's a 63/10 guy pre... I ended up folding , as did the two limpers, and he showed his cards.

More info needed. Stack size and stats or tendencies on limpers and stack size of SB, and you as well? (You were BB I assume?). What level were you at? How close to the money/bubble? Depending on info probably either an easy fold or an easy shove/call.....

What did he show. A 63/10 who shows probably had it.

Zorba · Nov 18, 2013

AJ like blueskies said can be a problem hand, I would have just completed the BB and seen a flop and go from there, you might flop a monster and your villain might bet out, making your job easier.

Skull_Sniper · Nov 18, 2013

Fold.

blueskies · Nov 18, 2013

fletchdad said:
More info needed. Stack size and stats or tendencies on limpers and stack size of SB, and you as well? (You were BB I assume?). What level were you at? How close to the money/bubble? Depending on info probably either an easy fold or an easy shove/call.....

What did he show. A 63/10 who shows probably had it.

This was a cash game. The shove was for about 80 big blinds.

It was my first hand at the table so I had no info other than having a 63/10 handtracker data on him from previous matchups. (Less than 50 hands). I decided to muck my JJ and he flipped over AA.

I just didn't wanna go to a coinflip in my first hand even if he had AK or AQ. And I'd rather go to a preflop all in with JJ than AJ. Even if the guy is a donk.

The point is that sometimes it's fine to fold. Depends on situation.

Mr Sandbag · Nov 19, 2013

blueskies said:
This was a cash game. The shove was for about 80 big blinds.

It was my first hand at the table so I had no info other than having a 63/10 handtracker data on him from previous matchups. (Less than 50 hands). I decided to muck my JJ and he flipped over AA.

I just didn't wanna go to a coinflip in my first hand even if he had AK or AQ. And I'd rather go to a preflop all in with JJ than AJ. Even if the guy is a donk.

The point is that sometimes it's fine to fold. Depends on situation.

These are spots that seem to come up a lot more in live cash lately. Most recently, one opponent did it to me with A3o and another opponent did it to me with J10o. I called the first hand with KQ and didn't improve (there was enough dead money to make the call profitable against a weak range), but I called the J10o hand with 8-8 and stacked him. From my experience...

The worse the player, the stronger his limp/shove range. The stronger the player, the weaker his limp/shove range.

Bad players get a thrill from trapping people and don't care about the risk of letting a bunch of trash limp in for a cheap flop. I've seen strong players limp in with a mediocre or spec hand they should have folded or raised with, then try to "correct" the mistake with an aggro move.

fletchdad · Nov 19, 2013

blueskies said:
This was a cash game. The shove was for about 80 big blinds.

It was my first hand at the table so I had no info other than having a 63/10 handtracker data on him from previous matchups. (Less than 50 hands). I decided to muck my JJ and he flipped over AA.

I just didn't wanna go to a coinflip in my first hand even if he had AK or AQ. And I'd rather go to a preflop all in with JJ than AJ. Even if the guy is a donk.

The point is that sometimes it's fine to fold. Depends on situation.

Ahh, that obv. is a very different situation. Since it was in a tourney related thread, I assumed you were also in a tourney situation.

khe0ps · Nov 19, 2013

What should i do in LP or button with pocket 9's or worse if in the hand are involved SB BB call from UTG and 3bet from MP should i usually fold or 4bet/all-in?

fletchdad · Nov 19, 2013

khe0ps said:
What should i do in LP or button with pocket 9's or worse if in the hand are involved SB BB call from UTG and 3bet from MP should i usually fold or 4bet/all-in?

This is not enough info to make any kind of suggestions. It is also a bit confusing what you mean. How can you have a call from UTG and a 3bet from MP? And how can SB + BB be involved if you have not yet made your play?

detourglr · Nov 19, 2013

Myself I would ave to know more abotu this limper to make a good decision. Also is this a cash game or tournament..
Tournament, I would call.. you are getting low stack and and really need to find a situation to double up. Limper is shorter stack than you and channces are he doesnt have AA or KK. but some people will limp like this but that you have to take your chances..
now If I had a bigger stack, I proably would fold. I not risking my stack on A-Jo.
Now cash game. I proably would call here.. I would guess a low pair for the limper since he is short stack. and basically a coin flip.. and we arent that great of shape. in fact I would have bought more chips beforehand.

blueskies · Nov 19, 2013

khe0ps said:
What should i do in LP or button with pocket 9's or worse if in the hand are involved SB BB call from UTG and 3bet from MP should i usually fold or 4bet/all-in?

Depends on stack size and how much you're risking. Shoving is fine with 99+ if you know MP is fairly loose/aggressive. You have plenty of fold equity. When heads up, you’re in trouble only against TT+.
Depending on how big a bet it is, with 22-88 I tend to just call to set mine in cash games. Or I just fold.

kmichaels · Nov 19, 2013

My short experience say that 80% of the time that that situation happens the limper will have a monster hand. Nothing less than AA,KK,QQ or even AK and AQ.
But normally they have a big pair and occasionally they have a big ace. Don´t call if you have less than those hands or you will be in trouble 80% of times.

Limpers who shove when you raise: what to do?

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