Push / Fold Stage

How many big blinds for the push / fold stage? I'm surprised when I see that people limp with a pot of less than 10 bb, especially with a strong hand, such as a pair of kings. What they want to see, maybe an ace and then fold, keeping their chips, the prizes are still far away:idea:

For myself, I determined that if the stack is less than 10 BB, then the optimal strategy is push / fold. In this situation, I try to be patient and stick to a narrow range of hands for pushing.
I think the main thing here is to avoid unnecessary risks. With a stack of less than 10 BB, it makes no sense to limp. Better to push all-in even with a low hand to get a chance to double or take a pot on the preflop.

I will really depend on who you talk to but the push fold stage for me is 12BB or less. The thing you must remember is still pushing a smart range of hands. I have seem players push hand they should not be playing from EP.

As for limping when short is is not worth it. I guess if the table is crazy raising you limping with Aces and kings to get them to shove might work but I would not suggest doing that.

Table dynamics can alter this a little bit, but typically 10-15BBs (late in the tournament) is push/fold time.

I am pretty bad when Im short stacked so I even push a little earlier with Monster hands if I get them. Otherwise I am far too nervous and not patient enough to wait for the right moment...

When I start to get short the first question I start to think about is how much better are my opponents than me. If I am at a table where I think many of the players are better than me I will start my push folding much earlier than normal (even as high as 20 BB). The more I feel that I am better than the players I am currently against I will wait to as low as 8 BB in extreme situations. Note that I wouldnt limp with a stack lower than 13BB or so but I would just min raise and still give myself a chance to outplay my opponents if I feel I am better.

Also keep in mind that M is important. Meaning the measurement of both blinds plus antes compares to your stack. This is a measurement of how many orbits you can survive if you folded continuously. If your M is 3 to 4 but you still have 15 BB then I think its fine to start shoving regardless of how you rate against your opponents. This would be the case with 300 antes, 500-1000 blinds, stack of 15k, 9 handed.

EX: (300*9)+500+1000=4200 per orbit

15,000 stack/4200=3.57 for M

You may have already known what M was but thought I would put an example in there just in case.

10-15bb push/fold

vnnby said:

I'm surprised when I see that people limp with a pot of less than 10 bb, especially with a strong hand, such as a pair of kings.

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Typically people are doing this as a trap, especially from early position. They hope, someone will read the limp as weak and jam some mediocre holding like A5 offsuit or J9 suited. As Collin Moshman say in another thread, I started, this is typically a very unbalanced strategy for most people. Unless your opponents are really bad, it is probably best to just jam your entire range.

fundiver199 said:

Typically people are doing this as a trap, especially from early position. They hope, someone will read the limp as weak and jam some mediocre holding like A5 offsuit or J9 suited. As Collin Moshman say in another thread, I started, this is typically a very unbalanced strategy for most people. Unless your opponents are really bad, it is probably best to just jam your entire range.

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An obvious trap for yourself. For me personally, the push / fold stage starts at 10bb, especially with a hand like kings. There is no worry that you will be handed over or paid little or I will see an ace on the flop. The most good starting hand and limp, which allows players to go in and pick up chips. I am especially concerned about such players if I have seen their game before this. And of all the games of professional players, I have not seen limps at the push / fold stage, but maybe I'm wrong and there is a place of such a strategy. At least it makes me think.:idea:

Some limp with AA. Before prizes with this game is very difficult to reach. You can play very carefully. Reset preflop kk or aa is always a mistake. Aa reset also a mistake unless it is a satellite in a bubble where all prizes are the same and where your stack is already guaranteed you a prize.

In the past I was the one to end even with one blind left lol or get blinded out , but nowadays I play more aggressively .. Still need to get a lot better with shove-fold decisions , a chart would help I guess .

I wouldn't say 20BB is my push/fold moment but when I get below 20BB I start making myself more aware that that moment is creeping up and if the opportunity arises to jump on it. Especially when you see players playing loose-aggresive I might push with a premium hand and 20 BB preflop. Although i think i more so just try to really tighten up my play until i get to that push/fold moment. Between 10BB and 20BB is my ideal push/fold position but I dont like to drop below 5BB. Below 5BB and you I will push with a mediocre hand or better. (Two midrange cards or most Aces)

vnnby said:

How many big blinds for the push / fold stage? I'm surprised when I see that people limp with a pot of less than 10 bb, especially with a strong hand, such as a pair of kings. What they want to see, maybe an ace and then fold, keeping their chips, the prizes are still far away:idea:

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When ~10BB limps w AA or KK they are hoping to trap a raiser with a shove.

I am always weary of a short stack limper until I can see his holdings - at least once.

If he is limping w QT for example then it means to me that he is trying to get lucky without committing too many chips preflop. To me this means that his game can be easily exploited.

It works everytime until the last time - right?

Good luck !

Luvepoker said:

I will really depend on who you talk to but the push fold stage for me is 12BB or less. The thing you must remember is still pushing a smart range of hands. I have seem players push hand they should not be playing from EP.

As for limping when short is is not worth it. I guess if the table is crazy raising you limping with Aces and kings to get them to shove might work but I would not suggest doing that.

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This is definitely true. I do want to add that even if we're in the 15bb-20bb range and we have a speculative hand, we can find a shove here too. The key, is to make sure we have an image that is suitable enough for it to get through, and players that are not willing to call off that amount of chips with okay hands.

I always shove >12bb, except sometimes limping small pairs that play well in a multi-way pot. <25bb can often be a 3-bet jam with 99+ AJs+, and 3-betting for value with QQ+