$2 NL HE 6-max: An accidental beheading on 2NL

[puzzlefish]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

GG 6-max NL

In this case only HJ and SB matter.

SB - 75 bb
HJ (Hero) - 137 bb

Hero is dealt

Pre-flop

UTG fold
HJ opens to 3bb
SB calls, all else fold

Flop - 7bb



Good flop, but a lot of draws are on the board and 2NL players like SB love to chase their draws no matter the cost.

SB checks
HJ bets 7bb
SB calls

Turn - 21bb



SB checks again
HJ bets 16bb

Rationale is while I am behind all flushes, I am still ahead of possible flush draws with an ace and am not drawing dead against anything. I want to get paid because these players love to keep calling.

SB jams (65.5bb)

Spoiler

I think I am behind here 😇

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Standard open.

Flop
At higher stakes I would not press the "pot" button, but against a calling station at 2NL its probably fine. Or maybe you could even overbet? If he is going to call 7BB with top pair and all sorts of draws, maybe he is also going to call 10BB?

Turn
This is one of the worst cards in the deck, since it complete not only the flushdraw but also AJ and J9, which were gutshots. Especially when you got a big bet in on the flop, I would usually pot control a little and check back here. Having Td is your hand, you can even call a diamond river, unless its some massive overbet or something, or bet for value if checked to. And of course a board pair would be awesome.

As played you are getting around 2:1, so you need 33% equity to make a profitable call. You only have 10 outs to a full house, which is around 22%. However if he has a low flush or a straight without the Ad or Jd, you have additional outs to a flush. And maybe once in a while he could be overplaying a hand like KQ or bluffing. So I think, you have to close your eyes and call it off.

 

[Station_Master]

Agree with the above, plus i would add its best not to get into spots where your priced in to call off your stack as the underdog, therefore i think checking turn is best

 

[puzzlefish]

So I did call it off. And it was probably close to the worst scenario.
SB showed:


However, SB also instantly cashed out and it was a good thing that he did, because the river was a .

 

[monkeytilter]

Don't hate your flop bet sizing, but you can consider over betting as an exploit?
Yes hands weak draws and small pairs will most likely fold but you get to play for stacks vs all the stronger hands that are never folding like KQ, KT, KJ, flush draws/combo draws.

Definitely bet smaller on the turn (1/3 pot?) with the intention of BET-FOLD to big re-raises (that price us out), yes it's nitty but winning play for sure vs population.

Do you get villain stats? I think you play on your phone? Do you get access to the smart HUD?
You can make better judgements using the stats and posting them here would make the hand discussion more interesting/useful.

 

[fundiver199]

Definitely bet smaller on the turn (1/3 pot?)

with the intention of BET-FOLD to big re-raises (that price us out), yes it's nitty but winning play for sure vs population.

It just look soooooo obviously weak to pot the flop and then only bet 1/3 pot on the turn, when draws complete. Like we are literally screaming from the mountain top, we dont have a flush. So its like saying “hey please bluff me”, and when we do that, we typically should not fold. Whereas if we check back turn, the opponent can value bet worse hands on the river, which gives us a much easier call and allow us to realise our equity.

 

[monkeytilter]

It just look soooooo obviously weak to pot the flop and then only bet 1/3 pot on the turn, when draws complete. Like we are literally screaming from the mountain top, we dont have a flush. So its like saying “hey please bluff me”, and when we do that, we typically should not fold. Whereas if we check back turn, the opponent can value bet worse hands on the river, which gives us a much easier call and allow us to realise our equity.

I've only suggested folding to raises that price us out (of our 10 out draw), villain is going to have to make a chunky raise to do that and at 2NL that just isn't happening often enough (villains lean toward calling mistakes).

Not ruling the check turn out (was going more exploit vs population though with blocking size).
Question then is if we check turn and villain checks river, what size value bet can we make (assuming river bricks out)?

 

[blueskies]

Check the turn.

When check/shoved against, you are almost always behind. Your only hope would be if villain is an idiot.

 

[puzzlefish]

Do you get villain stats? I think you play on your phone? Do you get access to the smart HUD?
You can make better judgements using the stats and posting them here would make the hand discussion more interesting/useful.

I will have a look at that for next time. Thanks.

 

[puzzlefish]

Check the turn.

When check/shoved against, you are almost always behind. Your only hope would be if villain is an idiot.

Ok that's nice when you know the results. But checking back turn will also allow any runner flushes to get realized for free by the river.

Whereas if we check back turn, the opponent can value bet worse hands on the river, which gives us a much easier call and allow us to realise our equity.

Question then is if we check turn and villain checks river, what size value bet can we make (assuming river bricks out)?

And also, is this an acceptable line or are we generally giving away equity for all the villain hands that are still drawing on the turn.

Checking back turn looks great this time.

 

[monkeytilter]

Ok that's nice when you know the results. But checking back turn will also allow any runner flushes to get realized for free by the river.






And also, is this an acceptable line or are we generally giving away equity for all the villain hands that are still drawing on the turn.

Checking back turn looks great this time.

I don't think you need to worry about "giving away equity" too much here as you may not have as much as you think if chips start flying into the pot, although the small bet line can get rid of some junky hands that still have equity against you (e.g. small pairs with a diamond) but more importantly get thin value from Kx hands (it's great having a set and villain can have all the top pairs!).
BTW if I bet 40% turn and get called I'm looking to check and showdown if I can, I think a second bet (on the river) is just too thin.

Checking the turn here with your hand is a very GTO thing to do, but I'm not sure where that leaves us on the river, I think GTO may have to check river too a lot of the time! Check turn and river seems just too nitty in a pool of stations at 2nl, hence my question to @fundiver199 about value betting the river if it goes chk/chk,chk/...

 

[fundiver199]

Question then is if we check turn and villain checks river, what size value bet can we make (assuming river bricks out)?

Then we just make a standard value bet and get called by lots of one pair or two pair hands. Like 2/3 pot or whatever your normal sizing is.

the small bet line can get rid of some junky hands that still have equity against you (e.g. small pairs with a diamond)

Small pairs with a diamond are drawing dead, since Hero has Td in his hand. Also did they really call full pot on the flop? That seems a little unlikely.

but more importantly get thin value from Kx hands (it's great having a set and villain can have all the top pairs!).

This is true, but we can get that value as well on a brick river.

 

[monkeytilter]

Then we just make a standard value bet and get called by lots of one pair or two pair hands. Like 2/3 pot or whatever your normal sizing is.

Small pairs with a diamond are drawing dead, since Hero has Td in his hand. Also did they really call full pot on the flop? That seems a little unlikely.

This is true, but we can get that value as well on a brick river.

Good point with us having Td. We don't benefit from any 'equity clear up' here.

So if it went check-check on the turn what size bet would you call on various rivers if villain then leads into us?

 

[fundiver199]

So if it went check-check on the turn what size bet would you call on various rivers if villain then leads into us?

At least up to full pot. If he overbet, I would need to think about it and consider any possible reads on the opponent. If the board has paired, I would jam over his lead and try to win his entire stack.

 

[blueskies]

Ok that's nice when you know the results. But checking back turn will also allow any runner flushes to get realized for free by the river.

False. I would advocate checking the turn even if OP hadn't revealed the results.

You have the Td, which would be the 3rd nut flush even if a fourth d comes on the board. On a super wet board like that that very well could have filled a flush or straight on a Qd, if you bet and get jammed on, are you just gonna call it off and hope you river a FH?

IF I know villain to be a calling station, I would bet. But against competent opponents I am checking that turn.