$2 NL HE 6-max: Can we find a fold with the 2nd nut straight?

[puzzlefish]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

6-max fast fold 2NL on 888 Snap

BTN (Hero) 157bb
SB 120.5bb
BB 28.5bb
UTG 69.5bb
HJ 115.5bb
CO 117bb

Hero has

UTG raises to 2.5bb
CO calls
Hero calls
Two folds

Flop 9bb


UTG checks
CO bets 2bb
Hero calls
UTG folds

Turn 13bb


CO bets 2bb
Hero calls

River 17bb


CO bets 5bb
Hero raises to 15bb

CO jams all-in (110.5bb)
Hero?

We lose to JT only.

 

[yomarianob]

Never folding here, I may be wrong. But the turn 2bb bet is not JT, not with 2 flushdraws there.

I put villain on spades or sets. Did you call?

 

[Sunz of Beaches]

Its extremely enticing to call but in the best case u are playing for a split pot and in the worst case ur opponent shows j10 of spades.

Now on NL2 i would probably call since people maybe do that with a naked 10 but if u play higher u have to definitely consider folding. Split pot minus rake is not worth it and if u are up against a solid player then he basically only has j10 there or a bluff (which would be a very bold bluff after u already raised him).

To not get into this spot u could consider only calling the river bet.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Its a little borderline calling an UTG open with this hand but whatever.

Flop
Giving his sizing you have to at least call, but you could also raise and turn your hand into bluff. I probably just call most of the time.

Turn
At least 2/3 of the deck will change the texture in a way, thats bad for you, by completing either flushdraw, pairing the board, counterfeiting your hand or make any worse hand play the board. You also cant improve, so this is definitely not the time to slowplay, and especially not when he make a laughable small bet like this. Not raising here is a very significant mistake.

River
You were lucky to get one of the few clean cards in the deck, and you face another small bet. You absolutely need to raise now, when you did not do it on the turn, but your sizing is to small. There are very few hands, that will put in an extra 10BB, that will not also put in 15 or 20. You are giving him almost 4:1, and you dont need to give him such a great price to get him to make a bad call. In fact a larger raise can look more bluffy and sometimes even get called more.

When he jam, it sucks, because a line of small bet, then big 3-bet when raised, is usually very strong. The fish psycology is, that he dont want you to fold, so he bet very small. But then when you raise, he "know you have something", so he go all-in for maximum value. You are probably beat here, but even so I dont think, its a significant mistake to call it off.

Sometimes you might be chopping, and once in a blue moon he might show up with something totally crazy like pocket aces, because he cant read the board. But it is also ok and probably slightly better to fold here. Even though you block JT, there are still 12 combos of it, so its like having QQ preflop, where we can also sometimes get away facing a jam for 100BB or more.

 

[Station_Master]

You have a bluff catcher and its probably fairly indifferent. Who knows what is going on with the wacky 2NL ranges, so it has to come down to your reads on the player. Some people would never play JT this way, others only have JT when they 3bet river.

 

[puzzlefish]

Split pot minus rake is not worth it

Is folding really better here, don't we lose more than the rake? Having a hard time balancing the risks of losing 21.5bb by folding vs. rake loss vs. just winning the pot.

Did you call?

Yes and it was a 55 making that move, so we were good this time.

I did play the hand pretty passively from being biased with having bad runouts on the river in the past in these kinds of spots. I think had I raised on the turn, he would have gotten it all in as well so it would not be much different in this particular case, but long term I should still be raising on the turn. I just very much dislike how vulnerable I am to jams even at that street.

 

[puzzlefish]

You have a bluff catcher and its probably fairly indifferent. Who knows what is going on with the wacky 2NL ranges, so it has to come down to your reads on the player. Some people would never play JT this way, others only have JT when they 3bet river.

Yes and with fast fold poker it is even more difficult to make a good read.

 

[watup]

Jeah, probably, call, what does the solver say

 

[fundiver199]

Yes and it was a 55 making that move, so we were good this time.

Thats the spazz factor at the low end of the micros, I was talking about, where the guy only look at his own hand and go "LOL I have a straight" without even considering, that its only the third best straight, and any hand with a T in it has a better straight. Thats why at 2NL it is ok to close your eyes and call here, because sometimes people massively overplay their hand. Whereas if this happen at 10NL, its a pretty disgusting spot, and you should probably fold, unless you have some kind of read on the opponent.

I did play the hand pretty passively from being biased with having bad runouts on the river in the past in these kinds of spots.

If you raise the turn, get action, and a bad card comes on the river, then you simply adjust to your new relative hand strenght. Like maybe the river card is 8s filling up sets and two pair and completing the front door flushdraw. Then you can just check back and take a free showdown, since you got your value on the turn. Or if he donk into you for full pot, you can fold and live to see another day.

I just very much dislike how vulnerable I am to jams even at that street.

This is monsters under the bed thinking. When he bet 2BB into a pot of 13BB, the last thing on your mind should be, that he probably has the nuts, and that you dont want to get 3-bet. Its not going to happen very often, and even when it does, its much less worrying, that it is on the river, since he could be semi-bluffing some sort of big draw. Or he could have the same hand and fastplay it for the same reason, that you should have fastplayed.

 

[Grzegorz00pl]

6-max fast fold 2NL on 888 Snap

BTN (Hero) 157bb
SB 120.5bb
BB 28.5bb
UTG 69.5bb
HJ 115.5bb
CO 117bb

Hero has

UTG raises to 2.5bb
CO calls
Hero calls
Two folds

Flop 9bb


UTG checks
CO bets 2bb
Hero calls
UTG folds

Turn 13bb


CO bets 2bb
Hero calls

River 17bb


CO bets 5bb
Hero raises to 15bb

CO jams all-in (110.5bb)
Hero?

We lose to JT only.

it's a pity you lost. Cut-off position... You can expect 76s+ also xD
Good Luck!

 

[monkeytilter]

ATo vs UTG open SNAP FOLD, you can fold easily AJ and still crush 2NL - simplify your game and focus on getting value from strong hands.

Turn: Try and get as many chips in as you can, raise over pot. You now have a very strong value hand and can extract from all the draws and inferior made hands. Tiny part of villain's range is JT - If he has that then it's his lucky day, he will double up in this hand - stop worrying and trying to play guessing games. There are two flushes that can land on the river and ruin your action, get value now!

Readless in a heads up pot just call the river at 2NL, though you should have been the one putting the big bet in. If he happens to have JT: nh, reload.

There is a pattern to your posts: You make a marginal call pre, then end up playing guessing games post flop, this is not what 2NL is about.

 

[puzzlefish]

There is a pattern to your posts: You make a marginal call pre, then end up playing guessing games post flop, this is not what 2NL is about

That's a good observation, but is not a reflective sample of my actual 2NL game. I post these hands to see what could have been done differently or better. ATo vs a strong UTG open from an unbroken stack - yes, maybe that is a fold. A weak open from a broken stack on UTG is something that will pique my interest. There's more to that kind of situation, at least where I am right now in my game.

 

[monkeytilter]

That's a good observation, but is not a reflective sample of my actual 2NL game. I post these hands to see what could have been done differently or better. ATo vs a strong UTG open from an unbroken stack - yes, maybe that is a fold. A weak open from a broken stack on UTG is something that will pique my interest. There's more to that kind of situation, at least where I am right now in my game.

I can only speak to your posts

How did you decide this was 'a weak open'?
What was your plan if SB 120bb deep 3-bet squeezes the 'weak open' followed by a weak call?

 

[Iryna Stryzheuskaya]

It is better to make a fold preflop and have no problems later.

 

[eetenor]

6-max fast fold 2NL on 888 Snap

BTN (Hero) 157bb
SB 120.5bb
BB 28.5bb
UTG 69.5bb
HJ 115.5bb
CO 117bb

Hero has

UTG raises to 2.5bb
CO calls
Hero calls
Two folds

Flop 9bb


UTG checks
CO bets 2bb
Hero calls
UTG folds

Turn 13bb


CO bets 2bb
Hero calls

River 17bb


CO bets 5bb
Hero raises to 15bb

CO jams all-in (110.5bb)
Hero?

We lose to JT only.

Yes we lose to JT and they can have it and play this way but also they often have aT so we are chopping or losing not a great reason to call. We have to think that they think we have a hand worse than a T that they are going to get to fold---so would you ever not raise a set on turn or would you ever raise A7 on river? If not then this being a bluff or poorly played value worse than Tx is a low frequency play.

Flatting the turn was an error--- the range of hands worse than Tx that calls a turn raise means this is a 100% raise spot.

 

[puzzlefish]

How did you decide this was 'a weak open'?
What was your plan if SB 120bb deep 3-bet squeezes the 'weak open' followed by a weak call?

For me, a weak open from UTG is a broken stack, a limp, a min-raise (2bb), or a combination of those.

The what-ifs aren't relevant to this particular hand, but in that hypothetical situation sometimes I may fold or sometimes I may call. It depends on the situation and who the players are that are doing this. It will also depend on the sizing of the squeeze and the stack of the squeezing player. Generally ATo is not something I want to be holding going three ways. However, we can't always be afraid of what the blinds might or might not do.

 

[eetenor]

Preflop
Its a little borderline calling an UTG open with this hand but whatever.

Flop
Giving his sizing you have to at least call, but you could also raise and turn your hand into bluff. I probably just call most of the time.

Turn
At least 2/3 of the deck will change the texture in a way, thats bad for you, by completing either flushdraw, pairing the board, counterfeiting your hand or make any worse hand play the board. You also cant improve, so this is definitely not the time to slowplay, and especially not when he make a laughable small bet like this. Not raising here is a very significant mistake.

River
You were lucky to get one of the few clean cards in the deck, and you face another small bet. You absolutely need to raise now, when you did not do it on the turn, but your sizing is to small. There are very few hands, that will put in an extra 10BB, that will not also put in 15 or 20. You are giving him almost 4:1, and you dont need to give him such a great price to get him to make a bad call. In fact a larger raise can look more bluffy and sometimes even get called more.

When he jam, it sucks, because a line of small bet, then big 3-bet when raised, is usually very strong. The fish psycology is, that he dont want you to fold, so he bet very small. But then when you raise, he "know you have something", so he go all-in for maximum value. You are probably beat here, but even so I dont think, its a significant mistake to call it off.

Sometimes you might be chopping, and once in a blue moon he might show up with something totally crazy like pocket aces, because he cant read the board. But it is also ok and probably slightly better to fold here. Even though you block JT, there are still 12 combos of it, so its like having QQ preflop, where we can also sometimes get away facing a jam for 100BB or more.

The above is an excellent breakdown---In low stake games the following statement is nearly 100% accurate----"The fish psycology is, that he dont want you to fold, so he bet very small. But then when you raise, he "know you have something", so he go all-in for maximum value"----

The bluff or value jam errors are so infrequent vs nut value jams that we can fold and just get the chips later most often---We would need a maniac read for us to call. This is a cash game, players this weak donate money in easy spots why try to hero them in a nasty spot like this.

 

[monkeytilter]

For me, a weak open from UTG is a broken stack, a limp, a min-raise (2bb), or a combination of those.

The what-ifs aren't relevant to this particular hand, but in that hypothetical situation sometimes I may fold or sometimes I may call. It depends on the situation and who the players are that are doing this. It will also depend on the sizing of the squeeze and the stack of the squeezing player. Generally ATo is not something I want to be holding going three ways. However, we can't always be afraid of what the blinds might or might not do.

I asked what your plan was to 3 bets from the blinds, not what your fears might be.
As you (hopefully) move up from NL2 you'll see that ATo flatting here is costing you money and you'll get get squeezed from the blinds frequently, both should factor into your thinking if you are trying to improve.

 

[fundiver199]

The bluff or value jam errors are so infrequent vs nut value jams that we can fold and just get the chips later most often---We would need a maniac read for us to call.

Of course we should not be to results oriented, but in this case the opponent was actually massively overplaying a worse hand "for value". So I do think, its probably correct to call here in a 2NL cash game, because players are just so bad, that you really have to factor in that spazz factor. At 10NL-25NL I think, there is more merit to finding the hero fold, because most players might not even 3-bet the T high straight. Which in fact they should also not do, since the T high straight is usually only getting action on a 3-bet, when its beat or chop.

 

[schtiuky]

i Think he has A8s spade and he put you because you bet small on AQ, Aj,A10

 

[ironduke11]

Possibly opponent hit a strong ace and thinks he's betting for value...would probably call here since with snap there is the temptation to fold marginal hands in anticipation of another immediate hand that the opponent is trying to use as an edge.
Rare to be unlucky here but that is part of the game.

 

[puzzlefish]

i Think he has A8s spade and he put you because you bet small on AQ, Aj,A10

Possibly opponent hit a strong ace and thinks he's betting for value...would probably call here since with snap there is the temptation to fold marginal hands in anticipation of another immediate hand that the opponent is trying to use as an edge.
Rare to be unlucky here but that is part of the game.

it was a 55 making that move, so we were good this time

 

[puzzlefish]

I asked what your plan was to 3 bets from the blinds, not what your fears might be.
As you (hopefully) move up from NL2 you'll see that ATo flatting here is costing you money and you'll get get squeezed from the blinds frequently, both should factor into your thinking if you are trying to improve.

Do you play a lot of NL2? Just out of curiosity. I barely see you anywhere so just trying to get a sense of where you are coming from. I think I may have seen you once on Snap tables in 888 (ShadowBenny).

 

[blueskies]

At 2NL it's an easy call. Do not assume opponent is good until proven otherwise.

It's a mistake to give villains too much credit at the bottom level. Usually they are bad.

Maybe he read your turn slow play as weakness and your river raise as a missed draw bluff. In any case, mark him and get him again next time. Cash cow.

 

[John A]

What second best hands did you think your opponent was calling to raise?
As played, it's a river fold.