$2 NL HE Full Ring: Is check on the flop (slowplay) correct or loosing EV?

[Mario7]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

I am particularly interested in the opinion of experienced players on the topic asked in the title - whether checking on the flop is correct. Or should I value bet instead?
Obviosuly my intention was trapping and letting both involved opponents to keep playing their hands and extract as much $ as possible. In this case it has ended with a shove anyway, but is it optimal line? Isn't it loosing value vs betting straight for value?

Or perhaps slowplay was too risky, to let opponents draw?

Anyway, feel free to put any comments or thoughts about this hand you might have

GGPoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 ($0.01 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $3.65 (183 bb)
UTG+1 (Hero): $4.38 (219 bb)
MP: $3.35 (168 bb)
MP+1: $4.04 (202 bb)
CO: $7.34 (367 bb)
BU: $3.95 (198 bb)
SB: $3.68 (184 bb)
BB: $1.32 (66 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.11) Hero is UTG+1 with 8♦ 8♠
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 2 players fold, CO calls $0.06, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.28) A♣ A♥ 8♥ (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($0.28) 5♠ (3 players)
SB bets $0.28, Hero calls $0.28, CO folds

River: ($0.84) K♣ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.70, SB raises to $3.33 (all-in), Hero calls $2.63

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Standard open.

Flop
You can slowplay a flopped full house, since you dont need to worry about getting outdrawn by a flush or straight. However in this particular situation I do prefer betting for value. You unblock trips, and there is a flushdraw on board, so I think, you get at least one opponent to continue enough of the time.

Turn
If you raise now, it looks bizarre but also very strong. So especially when he bet full pot, I think, its ok to just call and hope, he will bet the river as well.

River
I would definitely bet for value when checked to, and I like your sizing of just under full pot. When he pot the turn, it kind of polarize him to trips or nothing (maybe a flushdraw), so there is no reason to bet small to get a call from hands like 99 or TT. On the other hand if you jam, maybe he will actually find a fold with a hand like A4s or something. So I think, this is good sizing, which would also work at 10NL or 25NL.

Now he check-jam, and this is always interesting, since a river raise is usually the nuts in the micros. However he is kind of unlikely to have many of the better boats. AA, KK and AK usually 3-bet preflop. There are 2 combos of A8 and 6 combos of A5, but maybe he dont always call from SB with offsuit rag aces, and then there is only 1 combo of A5s.

And there are also 3 combos of 55, which he could definitely have and play like this. There is also the spazz factor, since its 2NL, where maybe he think, any ace is the nuts of this board and overplay it. Especially if he "slowplayed" a good ace like AQ preflop. So all in all I think, you have to close your eyes and make this call.

 

[bremp555]

Interesting hand and good question. On this flop (A-A-8) in a multiway pot, I think checking is defensible, especially at NL2 where people tend to overplay Ax and pocket pairs anyway. Your hand is extremely strong and very hard to outdraw, so letting opponents keep their weaker Ax, pocket pairs, or even random floats in makes sense. Betting small for value is also fine, but I don’t think checking here is a big EV mistake by default.

That said, the main downside of slowplaying is less about getting outdrawn and more about missing value against players who are passive and won’t start betting unless they improve. Against those types, betting yourself on the flop and turn might just print more money. In this exact spot, once SB leads turn and you call, the hand kind of plays itself, and the river action shows how willing people are to stack off with worse at these stakes.

Overall, I’d say checking flop is fine, especially versus aggressive or curious opponents, but versus typical NL2 passives, a small flop c-bet is probably the highest EV line long term. Nice hand to think about though.

 

[eetenor]

I am particularly interested in the opinion of experienced players on the topic asked in the title - whether checking on the flop is correct. Or should I value bet instead?
Obviosuly my intention was trapping and letting both involved opponents to keep playing their hands and extract as much $ as possible. In this case it has ended with a shove anyway, but is it optimal line? Isn't it loosing value vs betting straight for value?

Or perhaps slowplay was too risky, to let opponents draw?

Anyway, feel free to put any comments or thoughts about this hand you might have

GGPoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 ($0.01 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $3.65 (183 bb)
UTG+1 (Hero): $4.38 (219 bb)
MP: $3.35 (168 bb)
MP+1: $4.04 (202 bb)
CO: $7.34 (367 bb)
BU: $3.95 (198 bb)
SB: $3.68 (184 bb)
BB: $1.32 (66 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.11) Hero is UTG+1 with 8♦ 8♠
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 2 players fold, CO calls $0.06, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.28) A♣ A♥ 8♥ (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($0.28) 5♠ (3 players)
SB bets $0.28, Hero calls $0.28, CO folds

River: ($0.84) K♣ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.70, SB raises to $3.33 (all-in), Hero calls $2.63

In spots like this we want to think about our V's continue range not their whole range. If they continue with enough hand combos we would bet small. The reason we bet is because we want to build the pot larger sooner vs that continue range.

 

[Station_Master]

Checking or betting small are both fine on the flop. Big bet would be an error

 

[monkeytilter]

Interesting hand and good question. On this flop (A-A-8) in a multiway pot, I think checking is defensible, especially at NL2 where people tend to overplay Ax and pocket pairs anyway. Your hand is extremely strong and very hard to outdraw, so letting opponents keep their weaker Ax, pocket pairs, or even random floats in makes sense. Betting small for value is also fine, but I don’t think checking here is a big EV mistake by default.

That said, the main downside of slowplaying is less about getting outdrawn and more about missing value against players who are passive and won’t start betting unless they improve. Against those types, betting yourself on the flop and turn might just print more money. In this exact spot, once SB leads turn and you call, the hand kind of plays itself, and the river action shows how willing people are to stack off with worse at these stakes.

Overall, I’d say checking flop is fine, especially versus aggressive or curious opponents, but versus typical NL2 passives, a small flop c-bet is probably the highest EV line long term. Nice hand to think about though.

Haha, you have assumed hero is winning, we might still have a sick cooler story coming

This hand is a puzzle because we have ~200BB to get in some how. I think that's only going to happen when we've coolered villain or he's a 2NLwhale that is calling his 77 all the way.

I think readless at 2NL:
Bet flop small ('range' bet sizing) - give villain chance to do something silly like check raising trips/FD/merges and get a tiny bit of value from hands that think they can continue.

Turn polarised. Put a ridiculous sized bet in so we can easily shove river for ~SPR1. The point being here is we want all the chips in when villain has a hand he is paying with. Yes he folds hands he might have called smaller bets with but we can't have it both ways and getting 180BB 10% of the time massively outperforms getting 30BB 50% of the time (and that's not even calculating for villain calls giant turn to fold river).

River easy all in now, please God not the Quads..

To answer OP directly I've given you an approach but check is fine here as the tiny 'mistake' you make now missing some EV can be paid back by bigger mistakes from the villain later (you've had very good answers with the check line in other posts).

 

[puzzlefish]

When you slow play a vulnerable full house you always risk your villain catching up by the river. Since 2NL is usually underbluffed the river jam is a good sign that they did exactly that.

 

[Mario7]

When you slow play a vulnerable full house you always risk your villain catching up by the river.

Ok, sure, but should I consider it really vulnerable? The cards not beating me at the flop which can catch up and beat me by the river:
1. AK (not rising preflop!), AQ, AJ, AT, A9 - catching better full house or the last Ace - I do not think they ever fold if I bet, so I am loosing a stack anyway in such case - nothing to consider here
2. KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99 - this is the real risk, they would fold if pressed - 4 outs for better full house, about 16% turn+river together
3. A2-A7 catching the last Ace - they also could potentially fold if pressed hard - but the probability is pretty low (just 1 out - about 4%)
4. 22-77 catching quads - runner runner - risk so low, not really considering
Did I miss anything?

Since 2NL is usually underbluffed the river jam is a good sign that they did exactly that.

Do you suggest I should consider fold at the river?

 

[puzzlefish]

Ok, sure, but should I consider it really vulnerable? The cards not beating me at the flop which can catch up and beat me by the river:
1. AK (not rising preflop!), AQ, AJ, AT, A9 - catching better full house or the last Ace - I do not think they ever fold if I bet, so I am loosing a stack anyway in such case - nothing to consider here
2. KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99 - this is the real risk, they would fold if pressed - 4 outs for better full house, about 16% turn+river together
3. A2-A7 catching the last Ace - they also could potentially fold if pressed hard - but the probability is pretty low (just 1 out - about 4%)
4. 22-77 catching quads - runner runner - risk so low, not really considering
Did I miss anything?

Do you suggest I should consider fold at the river?

I don't think you're seeing it quite right. Nobody with a pair on this flop is going to assume you have an ace if you bet. It's pretty standard to stab at the pot and build it up because 3 aces are rare. Likewise nobody is going to think you have already picked up a full house. You are just losing value by checking the flop and slow playing.

The point isn't to protect your hand in this particular instance, even if you end up losin, but to extract as much value out of the situation as possible if you find yourself in it 1000 times (or many thousands of times).

In this case you are probably screwed on the river. It is probably a fold. What hands are going to be betting like this against you that are worse than you? Probably 55, if you got really lucky. Whatever it was, my take is that in most instances this is an ace rag or ace king that completes their boat.

 

[monkeytilter]

I don't think you're seeing it quite right. Nobody with a pair on this flop is going to assume you have an ace if you bet. It's pretty standard to stab at the pot and build it up because 3 aces are rare. Likewise nobody is going to think you have already picked up a full house. You are just losing value by checking the flop and slow playing.

The point isn't to protect your hand in this particular instance, even if you end up losin, but to extract as much value out of the situation as possible if you find yourself in it 1000 times (or many thousands of times).

In this case you are probably screwed on the river. It is probably a fold. What hands are going to be betting like this against you that are worse than you? Probably 55, if you got really lucky. Whatever it was, my take is that in most instances this is an ace rag or ace king that completes their boat.

Your thinking comes across as bit split (between pumping the value but have a pot we can still get away from if jammed on). Can you make it clear and suggest what bet sizes you'd go for.

I think your are right on the river as played.. Maybe OP should be asking can he fold river to the jam here?, he is definitely beat a good portion of the time, but 2NL? Trips getting over valued a lot? This board is so dry trips does look like a winning hand, especially with the flop check?

 

[fundiver199]

Do you suggest I should consider fold at the river?

You should definitely consider it yes. Meaning you should use up your entire time bank and really think it through before making your decision. It is by no means a snap call, because your hand is basically a bluff catcher, when the opponent check-jam the river for 165 BB. And this would be a terrible spot for him to bluff, because as the preflop raiser you can have all the good hands on this board including AA, KK, AK etc.

I already broke down, why I would probably call here, but I made some fairly optimistic assumptions like him not having AK, because he did not 3-bet pre. But maybe he does just flat AK pre out of position, because he is bad at poker, and now he is completely owning you on the river. If you had 55, then I definitely think, this is a fold, and even with 88 its pretty close.

 

[puzzlefish]

Your thinking comes across as bit split (between pumping the value but have a pot we can still get away from if jammed on). Can you make it clear and suggest what bet sizes you'd go for.

I think your are right on the river as played.. Maybe OP should be asking can he fold river to the jam here?, he is definitely beat a good portion of the time, but 2NL? Trips getting over valued a lot? This board is so dry trips does look like a winning hand, especially with the flop check?

On the flop, 1/3 to 1/2 pot should be fine to keep flush draws and pairs paying. Anything better also comes along. Call turn. If villain didn't lead then maybe 1/2 would be fine here again. River doesn't change much so I would still bet smaller, maybe 1/3, hoping to extract some value from smaller hands and not get jammed on by the bigger ones. If we get raised on the river maybe it would be a call but the jam is not how 2NL is typically played with trips. A fish who played AK and KK to hit the K on the river would definitely tell you he hit his bingo though.

 

[sibkaz]

It's better to gain less than lose more... How many times did I get in, thinking of catching in such situations...)))

 

[fundiver199]

A fish who played AK and KK to hit the K on the river would definitely tell you he hit his bingo though.

KK dont make that much sense though. Just call pre with the second nuts and then bet full pot on turn, even though he now lose to any ace, that either opponent could have? Thats kind of weird. But AK makes a lot of sense. Maybe he dont want to 3-bet AK out of position against an EP open, so he just call. Then of the flop he naturally check to the preflop raiser hoping, that either opponent will bet. To his disappointment it checks through, so on the turn he hit the "pot" button not thinking about, what he is trying to get called by. And then on the river he improve to the nuts and check-jam.

 

[puzzlefish]

KK dont make that much sense though. Just call pre with the second nuts and then bet full pot on turn, even though he now lose to any ace, that either opponent could have?

Slow play, afraid of the third ace on flop, catching up on missed value on the turn because now for sure there's no ace in his opponent's range, bingo on river get it all in

 

[Mario7]

Thank you all for your valuable input!
To sumarize:
- On the flop I qualified my cards as not very vulnerable, so I was interested in keeping opponents in the game and maximizing money in the middle. I considered either low bet or trap. Decided to trap, which I rarely do.
- After some re-thinking, discussing and reading your opinions I think betting small (30-50% pot) was better
- when Villain shoved TBH, I did not consider folding, my guess was my trap worked and he is just overplaying an Ace
- he had AK and I lost a stack

 

[fundiver199]

- he had AK and I lost a stack

As I said already, AK is the hand, which is most consistent with his turn and river line, and you dont block it with 88. So its not exactly a big surprice, he had exactly that. At the end of the day it is still a setup though. If you had bet the flop, he was obviously not going to fold, and he might well have raised. So the money might have gone in faster, but in the end he still jam the river, and its still very difficult for you to get away.