Another " What Value" thread.........

[chicubs1616]

I'll fold and save my chips for a better spot...

 

[diabloblanco]

Folding unconditionally with this hand is an amaturish play.

 

[Four Dogs]

Give it up Diablo. He's a Cubs fan. They're hopeless.

 

[chicubs1616]

an amaturish play

would be to just call here. HUGE sign of weakness, which a good player will realize and push over the top.

 

[Crippler450]

I would call with K Q offsuit, but only because I am not disciplined enough not to play it. The right call, in my opinion, is to fold. You always have to consider what MIGHT happen, contrary to what some posts have said. Thats why you dont play an A 4 offsuit, because you MIGHT catch and ace, which would often entice you to lose a lot of your chips to a higher kicker. If you are in early position, and after calling, someone doubles the blind, then what would you do? You would be almost forced to call, since you already called that amount on the first time around and now the pot is much larger. Now, if you happen to catch a flop like A K 2, you'll probably be committed enough to call small raises until the river (since the pot is decent because of the small raise by another player). In my experience, I would play a K Q in early position... but it would take a better, more disciplined player to lay it down, which would save them a lot of chips in the long run.

 

[diabloblanco]

So its better to fold them outright then it is to cold call or raise? Again, you seem so worried about what someone else is going to do that you aren't playing your own cards. I voted for raise double the big blind, but also added that there is a defense for all the options in certain situations. However, saying you would fold them and wait for a better spot without consideration for raising or calling is donkinsh, like I said.

 

[chicubs1616]

A min-raise is

donkinsh

.

You are going to get callers if you min-raise...you do NOT want callers with KQ offsuit!!!!

Min-raising is one of the most donkish plays in poker if you hold KQ off preflop in EP-MP

 

[diabloblanco]

I said I voted raise 2/3 x the BB, but that there were instances where any of the options were permissable. You like quoting me don't you?

I said I voted raise 2/3 x the BB, but that there were instances where any of the options were permissable. You like quoting me don't you?

There are many instances where you may want callers especially with middle suited connectors. He didn't say anything about limits, and I guess you're just used to low limit games where the opponent will call 2 to 3 times the bb without thought. Believe it or not, at some limits, people don't call a 2/3xBB bet without thought. While I agree cold calls are a sign of weakness, if you have proven yourself a player that is constantly changing gears and can play any style, your opponent has no choice but to consider the fact that you're holding a large pocket pair, and must be cautious when calling your 2/3 raise.

 

[jmp2369]

Early in the tournament? Shoot you have so many people playing any crap they get. Cant play top 10 hands all the time. Well you can but it really isn't playing poker. Anyone can just play AA KK QQ AK AQ. But how often do you get those?

But everyone has their own choice. But I'd play'em and play'em hard

Play at pokerstars you you get monsters like AA KK QQ JJ alot there. Its actually ridiculous the amount of times you get monsters like that a pokerstars. Other day I even seen two people have pocket aces at the same time. They really need to get a new randomizer at that site.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Gogo old topic~~

Without the limpers this would be a standard raise to ~3*BB, with them I'd raise 4-5*BB. If the two limpers are decent players (which they're probably not, both limping in from early position, but let's ignore that), I'd expect neither is going to be slowplaying a huge hand here from early position - I expect them to be holding hands like KJ, QJ, KT, JT often or perhaps 22 through 99. I fold to a reraise preflop, and play most flops aggressively if I get heads up considering I've shown strength preflop.

A fold here is silly - you have a playable hand and position on the two limpers who have shown no strength thusfar. Folding because you're afraid someone acting after you might have a stronger hand, or one of the early players is hiding a monster is stupid - are you just going to wait for AA before you even play a hand, because after all, if you have KK, that guy who limped in early position could have AA?

 

[titans4ever]

Early on in a tourney with the first two people aready in the hand I would call or raise in this position. If you call and get a raised by someone after you drop the hand, oops you lost only 5% of your stack oh well. Rather lose 5% early in a tourney than to try and play it later when you start to get the shortstacks bombing (which you would get if the first three people to act all call). If you raise, you now know where you stand and don't have to worry about what the blinds are holding if all small cards come on the flop.

For all of you who are scared of getting raised because of the position or that you don't have an ace, you play way to tight for my thinking. Would you throw JJ out if someone reraised you (they must have rockets)? I would throw it away if the first to act raised and second rereaised but you have just two callers. Don't you want several people in on a drawing hand.

KQ off suit is a slippery hand in a tourney but early on when the blinds are a smaller portion of my total chips I will try and see a flop with this hand. What is the difference between KQ off suit and two clubs and taking a shot at the flush?

I think I am reading to may posts, I am coming around to diablo's way of thinking.

 

[baudib]

I don't think you can fold. If no one comes over the top, then you can be pretty sure that no one is holding AQ or AK so if the K or Q hit on the flop, you're in pretty good shape unless a small pocket pair hit trips.