Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Figaroo2]

So who calls and who folds and why? Please

Just about the only spot today where I really didn't know whether to call or not, mainly because of the presence of two rather than one here.
This is where the lack of stats hurts my decision making in ZOOM games.

pokerstars new 10nl cash promo is running, its a silly one called MATCH, which is difficult to complete unless you start compromising on your hand selection and I've already commented on that elsewhere.
BUT it has brought a lot of fish to the tables and they are playing a lot of bad hands in bad positions trying to finish their match card. Something I am taking advantage of by playing reasonably tight.
I have finished my 3 match cards for each of the last 2 days winning $3.50 but the promo is designed to penalise tight play so it can take some time.

poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players ZOOM
SB: $9.98 (99.8 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $16.06 (160.6 bb)
UTG+2: $10 (100 bb)
MP1: $11.55 (115.5 bb) VPIP: 17, PFR: 17, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 12
Hero (MP2): $13.56 (135.6 bb)
MP3: $8.98 (89.8 bb) VPIP: 25, PFR: 13, 3B: 11, AF: 1.0, Hands: 48
CO: $16.52 (165.2 bb)
BTN: $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q♥ Q♠
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, MP3 calls $0.90, 4 folds, MP1 calls $0.60

Flop: ($2.85) 7♠ 6♥ 5♠ (3 players)
MP1 bets $1.36, Hero calls $1.36, MP3 calls $1.36

Turn: ($6.93) 2♥ (3 players)
MP1 bets $6.62 unexpected
HERO?

The guy on my left is clearly fishy and could have called with any pair and hit this board, its just one of those awkward spots!

The guy shoving seems to have a decent stack and I see no reason to think he's fishy, there are no real clues as to his strength other than he flats a 3bet and a 3bet call, this I think largely reduces the combos of AA and KK which probably just look to raise again especially with the fish in.
Maybe KK would flat here against 2 (I wouldn't). Yet he's happy to bomb away here into my show of initial strength

So what you doing here folks?

 

[John A]

Well, it's close. The biggest clue about his range is we can probably slightly discount AA/KK here. So you're looking more at some big draws AsKs, 2 pairs like 67s, straight, sets, 88 and then I think you can put some TT/JJ in there a good amount of the time.

You're a slight dog depending on how you want to weight the range. Maybe about 40-43% and you still have someone behind you. Mathematically it' ok to get it in here, but w/ someone else behind you, no reads, I don't mind a fold. It's just a high variance call any ways w/o someone behind you.

 

[rhombus]

Just about the only spot today where I really didn't know whether to call or not, mainly because of the presence of two rather than one here.
This is where the lack of stats hurts my decision making in ZOOM games.

Pokerstars new 10nl cash promo is running, its a silly one called MATCH, which is difficult to complete unless you start compromising on your hand selection and I've already commented on that elsewhere.
BUT it has brought a lot of fish to the tables and they are playing a lot of bad hands in bad positions trying to finish their match card. Something I am taking advantage of by playing reasonably tight.
I have finished my 3 match cards for each of the last 2 days winning $3.50 but the promo is designed to penalise tight play so it can take some time.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players ZOOM
SB: $9.98 (99.8 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $16.06 (160.6 bb)
UTG+2: $10 (100 bb)
MP1: $11.55 (115.5 bb) VPIP: 17, PFR: 17, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 12
Hero (MP2): $13.56 (135.6 bb)
MP3: $8.98 (89.8 bb) VPIP: 25, PFR: 13, 3B: 11, AF: 1.0, Hands: 48
CO: $16.52 (165.2 bb)
BTN: $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q♥ Q♠
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, MP3 calls $0.90, 4 folds, MP1 calls $0.60

Flop: ($2.85) 7♠ 6♥ 5♠ (3 players)
MP1 bets $1.36, Hero calls $1.36, MP3 calls $1.36

Turn: ($6.93) 2♥ (3 players)
MP1 bets $6.62 unexpected
HERO?

The guy on my left is clearly fishy and could have called with any pair and hit this board, its just one of those awkward spots!

The guy shoving seems to have a decent stack and I see no reason to think he's fishy, there are no real clues as to his strength other than he flats a 3bet and a 3bet call, this I think largely reduces the combos of AA and KK which probably just look to raise again especially with the fish in.
Maybe KK would flat here against 2 (I wouldn't). Yet he's happy to bomb away here into my show of initial strength

So what you doing here folks?

Yup the Card Match changes the whole dynamic of the game. What can normally be a close decision can go either way.

Did they call preflop because one of their cards was highlighted and they are semi bluffing to get the card or could have something similar to you aka overpair 88-JJ and now getting scared of drawy board. If it wasnt for player behind then easy call, otherwise im 50/50.

PS Tip for the Card Match, keep an eye on the Hands Left. Rather than let it get too low when you need two or 3 cards, reset it often.

If I get down to 30 hands without hitting one I reset

John's probably like WTF. Basically Pokerstars is turning the site into a creché and they keep introducing new toys to keep the kids happy.

 

[rhombus]

Once I barrel Turn Do i have to bluff River to get them off maybe a 7, 8 or smaller pocket pair and if so how much???.

IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $26.97 (269.7 bb)17/15 17% AG 47 hands
BB: $4.27 (42.7 bb)
UTG: $28.65 (286.5 bb)
MP: $9.10 (91 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
Hero (BTN): $9.85 (98.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with T

9

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.25, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.90) 7

2

8

(3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.50, SB calls $0.50, BB folds

Turn: ($1.90) A

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.33, SB calls $1.33

River: ($4.56) 3

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero ???

 

[John A]

Yup the Card Match changes the whole dynamic of the game. What can normally be a close decision can go either way.

Did they call preflop because one of their cards was highlighted and they are semi bluffing to get the card or could have something similar to you aka overpair 88-JJ and now getting scared of drawy board. If it wasnt for player behind then easy call, otherwise im 50/50.

PS Tip for the Card Match, keep an eye on the Hands Left. Rather than let it get too low when you need two or 3 cards, reset it often.

If I get down to 30 hands without hitting one I reset

John's probably like WTF. Basically Pokerstars is turning the site into a creché and they keep introducing new toys to keep the kids happy.

WTF?

lol... yeah, I didn't realize watch match was when I commented even. Ugh..

 

[rhombus]

Fold River??? even though aggressive it felt like overpair


Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $13.70 (137 bb)
BB: $26.12 (261.2 bb)
UTG: $10.41 (104.1 bb)
MP: $11.86 (118.6 bb)
CO: $13.14 (131.4 bb)
BTN: $13.69 (136.9 bb)26/19 AG 53% AF 8.0 3B 9.5 43 Hands

Preflop: Hero is SB with T

T

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.30, CO folds, BTN raises to $0.90, Hero calls $0.85, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.20) 6

9

9

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.05, Hero calls $1.05

Turn: ($4.30) 8

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $2.05, Hero calls $2.05

River: ($8.40) 4

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $4.30, Hero ??

 

[Aces2w1n]

What if we checkl/shove turn??? Especially with the heart being a great barrell card for our villain(reason why we check)

 

[Aces2w1n]

Well, it's close. The biggest clue about his range is we can probably slightly discount AA/KK here. So you're looking more at some big draws AsKs, 2 pairs like 67s, straight, sets, 88 and then I think you can put some TT/JJ in there a good amount of the time.

You're a slight dog depending on how you want to weight the range. Maybe about 40-43% and you still have someone behind you. Mathematically it' ok to get it in here, but w/ someone else behind you, no reads, I don't mind a fold. It's just a high variance call any ways w/o someone behind you.

QQ hand on the flop... the decision isn't about calling its about do we want to commit our stack, Especially with a MW pot.

Aren't we better off raising here and trying to get it in on the flop or turn? really make those draws pay and TT JJ pay us off.

 

[kapos77]

maybe call 1 bet on the flop and see if he backs off.
His preflop raise looks a little big, more likely a small - medium pocket pair trying to take it down preflop or a large pocket pair trying to get Max value than something like AJ, AQ

 

[John A]

QQ hand on the flop... the decision isn't about calling its about do we want to commit our stack, Especially with a MW pot.

Aren't we better off raising here and trying to get it in on the flop or turn? really make those draws pay and TT JJ pay us off.

I'm really unsure what you mean. The decision isn't about calling on the flop?

Well, put a range you think that's worse that's paying off in the 3-bet pot if hero raises the flop. Hero is maybe at best a coin flip vs a calling range if he raises the flop. So with someone left to act, I think it's generally better to make a call here, expecting the player behind to fold a ton. And if the player behind shoves, and MP fold, then we're getting it vs that range because of the 3-bet cold call range he could incorrectly shove there.

And the turn I think I explained. It's break even, but leans towards a fold in a spot like that MW. It's close though.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying or asking though.

 

[John A]

What if we checkl/shove turn??? Especially with the heart being a great barrell card for our villain(reason why we check)

Not sure why you think the 8h is a great barrel card. I think the opposite is true really, it's a horrible barrel card, only thing it adds is if he turns a flush draw. Other than that, it hits part of this c-betting range, and wouldn't make much sense for him to bet very often.

So in your mind what is calling if hero ch/shoves the turn when they started 137bbs deep?

I guess I'm picking on you.

 

[rhombus]

Checked river to induce and not complaining, but why would anybody over shove this river when they hit their Ace. Only had 3 hands on villain 67/67 AG67%.

If was as in same situation I might bet $3 with Aces and missed draws 89 and missed flush draws.

The only hands he would beat AJ/A9 and A8 would probably never call.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.18 (101.8 bb)
BB: $17.79 (177.9 bb)
UTG: $10 (100 bb)
Hero (MP): $12.55 (125.5 bb)
CO: $12.77 (127.7 bb)
BTN: $13.54 (135.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T

T

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, BTN raises to $1.10, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.80, CO folds

Flop: ($2.65) 7

4

T

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.40, Hero calls $1.40

Turn: ($5.45) 2

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($5.45) A

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $11.04 and is all-in, Hero calls $10.05 and is all-in

Results: $25.55 pot ($1.15 rake)
Final Board: 7

4

T

2

A

Hero showed T

T

and won $24.40 ($11.85 net)
BTN showed Q

A

and won $0.00 (-$12.55 net)

 

[rhombus]

slightly interesting hand from earlier.

Based on Stats what range do you put the CO and SB on

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $13.35 (133.5 bb)26/14 AG 11% 3B 4.5 Hands 60
BB: $13.14 (131.4 bb)
UTG: $10.76 (107.6 bb)
MP: $12.48 (124.8 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)20/12 AG 20% 3B 5.4 Hands 143
Hero (BTN): $14.78 (147.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 3

A

2 folds, CO raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, SB calls $0.85, BB folds, CO raises to $3.55, Hero folds, SB raises to $13.35 and is all-in, CO calls $6.45 and is all-in

 

[John A]

Checked river to induce and not complaining, but why would anybody over shove this river when they hit their Ace. Only had 3 hands on villain 67/67 AG67%.

If was as in same situation I might bet $3 with Aces and missed draws 89 and missed flush draws.

The only hands he would beat AJ/A9 and A8 would probably never call.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.18 (101.8 bb)
BB: $17.79 (177.9 bb)
UTG: $10 (100 bb)
Hero (MP): $12.55 (125.5 bb)
CO: $12.77 (127.7 bb)
BTN: $13.54 (135.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T

T

UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, BTN raises to $1.10, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.80, CO folds

Flop: ($2.65) 7

4

T

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.40, Hero calls $1.40

Turn: ($5.45) 2

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($5.45) A

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $11.04 and is all-in, Hero calls $10.05 and is all-in

Results: $25.55 pot ($1.15 rake)
Final Board: 7

4

T

2

A

Hero showed T

T

and won $24.40 ($11.85 net)
BTN showed Q

A

and won $0.00 (-$12.55 net)

Yes, NH. Considering he's aggressive this is good. And the river is a given check. He clearly has Ax or only had once chance to bluff, so it's a CRAI 100% of the time. Well done!

 

[John A]

slightly interesting hand from earlier.

Based on Stats what range do you put the CO and SB on

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $13.35 (133.5 bb)26/14 AG 11% 3B 4.5 Hands 60
BB: $13.14 (131.4 bb)
UTG: $10.76 (107.6 bb)
MP: $12.48 (124.8 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)20/12 AG 20% 3B 5.4 Hands 143
Hero (BTN): $14.78 (147.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 3

A

2 folds, CO raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, SB calls $0.85, BB folds, CO raises to $3.55, Hero folds, SB raises to $13.35 and is all-in, CO calls $6.45 and is all-in

Not sure we really need to assign a range, but I assume you're asking this because they had something wonky? But yeah, you're play here is fine, unless you folded and a flush hit, then in that case why didn't you call man? ?

 

[Aces2w1n]

Not sure why you think the 8h is a great barrel card. I think the opposite is true really, it's a horrible barrel card, only thing it adds is if he turns a flush draw. Other than that, it hits part of this c-betting range, and wouldn't make much sense for him to bet very often.

So in your mind what is calling if hero ch/shoves the turn when they started 137bbs deep?

I guess I'm picking on you.

hmmm your right i guess i was saying what id do with iniatitive which we dont have.
i guess turn we either call if he bets with ak or fold if he never barrells with air.

and i agree he 3bet so he is is Ak AQ overpairs etc

also i remember medium pp oop me pot pre is never good.. so it could be argued to fold this pre due the fact mp hasnt yet showed his strength yet

 

[rhombus]

Not sure we really need to assign a range, but I assume you're asking this because they had something wonky? But yeah, you're play here is fine, unless you folded and a flush hit, then in that case why didn't you call man? ?

LOL. Posted as couldn't believe what they showed up with

SB - 26/14 AG 11% 3B 4.5 Hands 60 had 33
CO - 20/12 AG 20% 3B 5.4 Hands 143 had A6 suited

Expected one of them to have at least JJ/AKThink I may have folded all the way up to JJ myself

 

[John A]

LOL. Posted as couldn't believe what they showed up with

SB - 26/14 AG 11% 3B 4.5 Hands 60 had 33
CO - 20/12 AG 20% 3B 5.4 Hands 143 had A6 suited

Expected one of them to have at least JJ/AKThink I may have folded all the way up to JJ myself

Standard.

Obviously something else was going on that maybe you missed when multi-tabling, or it was just purely a random spew. It happens sometimes and that's why we don't speak in absolutes in poker.

 

[rhombus]

Standard.

Obviously something else was going on that maybe you missed when multi-tabling, or it was just purely a random spew. It happens sometimes and that's why we don't speak in absolutes in poker.

True. Also probably highlights one of the big differences in Zoom and Non Zoom, table dynamics - difficult to tell if one of them has had a really bad beat or running bad

 

[Aces2w1n]

watching that poker after dark hand ivy vs dwan when ivy has wheel haha always makes me laugh

sry was wrong thread ... wont let me delete it sry guys

 

[kmart99]

Question regarding polarizing our 3bets in Zoom.

I'm currently bouncing between 16NL and 25NL zoom right now and have noticed that more and more players are starting to have a polarized range with their 3bets, especially at 25NL compared to 16NL.

I was wondering what kind of 3bet ranges the player pools at these stakes are using, and how to defend against a wider 3bet range.

At 2NL and 5NL it was easy because it seemed like damn near nobody but me would 3bet worse than AQo or AJs. Simple. Fold to most 3bets because they are so rare. Ive polarized my 3bets with a few low suited gappers and some low suited aces and was getting enough folds to be pretty profitable. Still wasn't inducing action but whatevs.

But now I can't seem to make the jump to 25NL and stay.

My button and CO opens get 3bet so much more often at 25NL.

What is the best plan of action here?

My thoughts are:
A) Tighten my opening range so that I can call a higher % of 3bets
B) 4bet wider
or
C) Just start calling 3bets wider

Or all of the above? Not sure

There's also a way higher % of regs at 25NL, and they tend to be the ones 3betting me all the time.

 

[Ian the Fish]

Question regarding polarizing our 3bets in Zoom.

What is the best plan of action here?

My thoughts are:
A) Tighten my opening range so that I can call a higher % of 3bets
B) 4bet wider
or
C) Just start calling 3bets wider

Or all of the above? Not sure

There's also a way higher % of regs at 25NL, and they tend to be the ones 3betting me all the time.

Well, I can give you my thoughts on this (although I am still grinding through NL2 / NL5). Generally speaking (and this come's from one of the videos on position on LeakBuster) it comes down to three things:

-Cards
-Skill
-Position

In case one is missing, you have to compensate with the other two. So in your case, assuming that you are raising relatively wide, you do not necessarily have your opponent beat by having a better hand, however, if you do have position and a skill advantage (this more relates to post-flop play), you should still come out ahead.

I think as a novice, the cards matter most, however, as you progress with your game, the cards are actually the least important factor of the three.

The reason, I guess, you are getting 3-bet more often in the higher stakes is that the players also know the value of position and they know how you could be exploiting that (opening relatively wide). So to counter that, they simply 3-bet you and put you to test. I believe this is what they call "leveling".

It comes down to being one step ahead of your opponent and knowing it. Easier said than done, of course. Try to experiment with 4-betting in position, calling / setting traps w/ good hands in position, and, if necessary (if your entire table is filled with super-aggro maniacs) tightening up your range of hands.

You should, though, hear from someone, who plays at higher stakes than me - their opinion might be a bit more applicable.

 

[NaixDK]

Interested

 

[John A]

True. Also probably highlights one of the big differences in Zoom and Non Zoom, table dynamics - difficult to tell if one of them has had a really bad beat or running bad

Yeah, and this is why I can do decent at fast tables, but it negates one of my personal biggest strengths in reading the table, and understanding when gears will be shifting or not shifting. You have no ability to do that at fast poker (zoom). It's just dry population tendency math.

 

[John A]

Question regarding polarizing our 3bets in Zoom.

I'm currently bouncing between 16NL and 25NL zoom right now and have noticed that more and more players are starting to have a polarized range with their 3bets, especially at 25NL compared to 16NL.

I was wondering what kind of 3bet ranges the player pools at these stakes are using, and how to defend against a wider 3bet range.

At 2NL and 5NL it was easy because it seemed like damn near nobody but me would 3bet worse than AQo or AJs. Simple. Fold to most 3bets because they are so rare. Ive polarized my 3bets with a few low suited gappers and some low suited aces and was getting enough folds to be pretty profitable. Still wasn't inducing action but whatevs.

But now I can't seem to make the jump to 25NL and stay.

My button and CO opens get 3bet so much more often at 25NL.

What is the best plan of action here?

My thoughts are:
A) Tighten my opening range so that I can call a higher % of 3bets
B) 4bet wider
or
C) Just start calling 3bets wider

Or all of the above? Not sure

There's also a way higher % of regs at 25NL, and they tend to be the ones 3betting me all the time.

Good questions.... but our of curiosity have you read the section on 3-betting in polished poker? And if not, why not give it a read and we can address some questions from there. They are good questions, and you want to get solid on this information, but I want to make sure we're coming from the same initial understanding base.