When holding rags, do you fold your sb?

[custo80]

When playing ring games (remember I haven't yet played over 2NL) I find that if i'm sb and it's an un-raised pot with 2 up to 7 limpers I always call. I don't think I've ever folded my sb to an unraised pot. At this level is that correct play, or should I tighten up? I understand at like 25NL and up you would fold sb with rags even if it is un-rasied but what about my mocro limits?

Cheers

 

[shinedown.45]

I don't have pokertrack but had downloaded the trial and found that when playing the SB with rags into a limped pot, it was a losing move in the long run.

 

[custo80]

That's the feeling that I have been getting in general but at the same time I keep saying to myself "it's only 1 cent" I think that might be a loser saying though lol

 

[zachvac]

Yes, I'm folding rags no matter what in the small blind, unless it's folded around and I think I can steal, or there's a limper or two that I can steal off of. Now if it's suited connectors or even offsuit connectors I'll limp along if there are a good amount of limpers already. As much as you may say "it's just one small blind", think of this. If there were no blinds, we would not have to play anything other than AA. At least at the mid-stakes, 3 PTBB/100 is considered a solid winrate. That's 6 big blinds every 100 hands. At a 9-handed table you are playing from the blinds just over 11 times in the 100 hands. If you pay the 1 small blind and don't win the pot 11 times, that cuts away all but one small blind of profit. So in relation to the amount of times you see it, the one small blind is a decent amount. The problem is it's just -ev. You're not going to win enough big pots to even justify it, since even the big pots you build with rags are usually beat by a bigger hand (ie you get 25 and flop 2 pair. If you stack you're likely to be against a set or higher 2 pair, especially in a big multiway limped pot, plus the 2 pair is extremely rare). You will very rarely take down the pot UI because you'll be playing a multi-way limped pot oop. Just so many factors not in your favor. Obviously the definition of rag varies, but the hands that I'd call rags should be folded 100% of the time from the sb unless you have a steal opportunity based on opponents (ie it's folded to you and bb folds 95% to steal attempt).

 

[OzExorcist]

If it's multi-way with limpers, yes, I'll often fold rag hands. You're getting a good price to hang around, but even so, you've gotta hit the flop really hard with a hand like 52o to continue.

What happens more often than not is either you flop nothing and you have to check-fold, or you flop a very marginal something, and you have to play it out of position against a bunch of others who could be holding just about anything.

Low suited connectors, low pairs, and some higher hands (T8, J9, etc), I might have a go with. But actual garbage... meh, it's probably easier to just save your money.

Keep in mind too that folding your small blind in these situations can have a positive effect on your image. Assuming your opponents are paying attention, if they notice you're the kind of player who'll throw their small blind away for just half a bet, they ought to give you credit as a tighter player than most. You may be able to leverage that when you've got a marginal hand in position, etc.

 

[custo80]

Thank you all, that answer my quesion. About to start a session now so I think my hands like 92 52 74 J3 K4 Q6 etc will get tossed in the SB. Question for Zach (or anyone that can answer) when everyone talks about PTBB, as a rule of thumb is it...

1PTBB/100 = 2 big blinds per 100 hands
2PTBB/100 = 4 big blinds per 100 hands
etc..

If so, at .01/.02 what is a solid winrate?

Cheers
Custo

 

[MrMuckets]

IMO the only reason to play rags is an attempt to steal.

 

[KerouacsDog]

great advice guys, keep it coming, Im learning so much about ring at CC.........

 

[switch0723]

A very general rule for the small blind is to only limp in with hands that you would limp in with elsewhere. So completing with hands like 9,t or q,j or pock 3's etc are all fine sicne you would do the same if your in the CO for instance and a few people have limped.

A hands such as t,6 however you wouldnt play anywhere else, so why make the exception?

 

[K_Kahne_Fan]

Don't look at your blinds as your money. We all have to pay the blinds, so once it's on the board it's community money. Basically look at them as an ante in a non hold em' game. Even though you've anted, it doesn't mean you're going to call every hand. With what Switch said, if you wouldn't normally call, don't in the blinds. Even if you're BB and someone min-raises, if you have trash... it's still trash... fold.

 

[zachvac]

Don't look at your blinds as your money. We all have to pay the blinds, so once it's on the board it's community money. Basically look at them as an ante in a non hold em' game. Even though you've anted, it doesn't mean you're going to call every hand. With what Switch said, if you wouldn't normally call, don't in the blinds. Even if you're BB and someone min-raises, if you have trash... it's still trash... fold.

This is true, however I'd consider calling with trash if it was the SB raising, thus we have position, especially if we have some kind of read.

 

[zachvac]

Thank you all, that answer my quesion. About to start a session now so I think my hands like 92 52 74 J3 K4 Q6 etc will get tossed in the SB. Question for Zach (or anyone that can answer) when everyone talks about PTBB, as a rule of thumb is it...

1PTBB/100 = 2 big blinds per 100 hands
2PTBB/100 = 4 big blinds per 100 hands
etc..

If so, at .01/.02 what is a solid winrate?

Cheers
Custo

Yes you're right about what PTBB/100 means and I have no idea what a solid winrate is at 1c/2c. Haven't played for any length of time at those limits.

 

[custo80]

Yes you're right about what PTBB/100 means and I have no idea what a solid winrate is at 1c/2c. Haven't played for any length of time at those limits.

Thanks Zach, I hope to be saying soon I haven't played those limits for a while aswell

 

[kaiWalk]

Don't look at the small blind as if it exists in a vaccum. Pot odds, your cards and position should determine your action.

In the small blind you are getting a significant discount on an unraised pot so the pot odds often favor a call, but it all depends on your game. Some players play rags well, others do not.

It depends on your own game. Though rags rarely hit (thus their moniker) when they do, they are usually worth a good pot because few people put you on the correct hand.

I win more with rags in the blinds then I do with A rags in late postion. They work for me because I play them well. I hate weak A's, no matter what position.

The more limpers there are in a pot, the more I like my rags. Conversely, if there are 6 players seeing a flop, I gotta assume my A is dead.

Of course all of this conversation ignores the rest of the table. In a ring game with aggressive maniacs who raise every A and see every river regardless of price, I'll fold my rags. In tourney play, I'll call every unraised sb unless I'm shortstacked. Well, unraised and any minimum raised preflop action; there is no bet I respect less than the minimum raise preflop, until the blinds are disproportionately large.