Seeing Mucked Cards

[AMTF1988]

I was playing a live tournament a little while ago, reached a showdown (not all-in), and I lost and mucked my cards. My opponent asked the dealer if he could see my cards and she said yes and flipped them over.

Is this right? Could he ask to see my cards?

 

[twizzybop]

I was playing a live tournament a little while ago, reached a showdown (not all-in), and I lost and mucked my cards. My opponent asked the dealer if he could see my cards and she said yes and flipped them over.

Is this right? Could he ask to see my cards?

Yes he paid to see them. He paid the rights to see what he beat.

 

[AMTF1988]

Yes he paid to see them. He paid the rights to see what he beat.

Fair enough. I've only ever seen it done on this occasion so I wasn't aware it was correct.

Thank you for clarification

 

[vinnie]

It is 'allowed' but it is also considered rude to ask to see mucked cards. It is like calling time on someone. It is within your rights, but it should only be done when there are exceptional reasons for it. Curiosity isn't [generally] considered a good enough reason. Someone who does this frequently will definitely be unpopular at the card room.

 

[bablovod]

is this correct? if I fold, it is not to see them or only with my consent

 

[Vlad symrak]

Yes it is possible, but this rule they do not know everything.First time for everything!!!!!

 

[zannie27]

Wooow!!

I was playing a live tournament a little while ago, reached a showdown (not all-in), and I lost and mucked my cards. My opponent asked the dealer if he could see my cards and she said yes and flipped them over.

Is this right? Could he ask to see my cards?

Absolutely not!! I play live in the Chicagoland areas and Indiana and have played on Vegas and never seen anything like that.. I probably would have called the Pit Boss to inquire about that.. What State where you playing in and at what casino?? That sounds pretty sketchy..

 

[AMTF1988]

Absolutely not!! I play live in the Chicagoland areas and Indiana and have played on Vegas and never seen anything like that.. I probably would have called the Pit Boss to inquire about that.. What State where you playing in and at what casino?? That sounds pretty sketchy..

It was in the UK, Grosvenor Casino. I was put off but I didn't do anything about it at the time

 

[Trick1988]

only with your consent

 

[twizzybop]

It is 'allowed' but it is also considered rude to ask to see mucked cards. It is like calling time on someone. It is within your rights, but it should only be done when there are exceptional reasons for it. Curiosity isn't [generally] considered a good enough reason. Someone who does this frequently will definitely be unpopular at the card room.

What better reason then to gain information. Any and all information no matter the significance of that information is mine. You chased that gut shot on the flop, turn and then we checked, checked the river. I paid for that information.
You re-raised me on the turn with a full bluff and I called to check check. I paid for that information. You have bottom pair, I paid for that information.
You called a 3X-5XBB raise with rags and we got to the river. I paid for that information. You can try to muck all you want but if you don't want me to have information then learn how to fold. Mucking cause you don't want me and others to have that information is way way way more sketchier then me asking to get that information you are trying to hide.

 

[vinnie]

Absolutely not!! I play live in the Chicagoland areas and Indiana and have played on Vegas and never seen anything like that.. I probably would have called the Pit Boss to inquire about that.. What State where you playing in and at what casino?? That sounds pretty sketchy..

only with your consent

Robert's Rules of Poker tend to be the governing body of rules for most card rooms, and unless they have specific written rules that override them, these should be the rules you look at.

SECTION 3: The Showdown: 5

Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.​

Unless the house rules specifically state that this is not permitted, you should always assume it is allowed. It is not sketchy or incorrect. A pit boss would only inform you of what the rules are. It is extremely rare, because it is not considered good form. That doesn't mean it is not permitted.

 

[twizzybop]

Any player who has been a legal part of the game can ask to see a called hand, even if the cards have already been mucked. Abuse of this privilege can result in denial by the dealer. When a winning player asks to see a mucked hand, that hand will be considered live, and the winning player can lose their pot. When any other players ask to see a folded hand, the hand will remain dead.
When players go all-in or check on the final round, the first to act is the first to present their hand. When wagering takes place in the final round, the last player to bet or raise will be the first to show their cards. When a player holds a hand that is likely the winner, they should show that hand immediately to speed play. When a side pot is involved, those playing in that pot should show their cards before those who are only involved in the main pot.

 

[vinnie]

I am not sure what your point is here. It is exactly what I have been saying.

As for why, if not for information, it is an anti-colluding rule. It is in place to keep the game fair. To stop two players from raising a third out, and one just folding and mucking to give his friend the pot.

Edit: This is the reason it is considered rude. You're implying that the person who mucked is cheating. Could you abuse this rule to gain information? Yes, but it was made to catch cheaters. And, there are people who understand that meaning and will take offense to it.

 

[vinnie]

What better reason then to gain information. Any and all information no matter the significance of that information is mine. You chased that gut shot on the flop, turn and then we checked, checked the river. I paid for that information.
You re-raised me on the turn with a full bluff and I called to check check. I paid for that information. You have bottom pair, I paid for that information.
You called a 3X-5XBB raise with rags and we got to the river. I paid for that information. You can try to muck all you want but if you don't want me to have information then learn how to fold. Mucking cause you don't want me and others to have that information is way way way more sketchier then me asking to get that information you are trying to hide.

You realize that this attitude is counter-productive to keeping weak players happy and contributing to your game, right? Don't shame the fish. Don't make them feel publicly embarrassed for calling down with weak and unwinnable hands. Don't make them feel stupid for chasing gutshot straights. They might stop doing those things, and you make a lot of money when they do them.

You won. Be happy enough with that. It would be great to also see their cards, but let them save a little bit of face. It is more +EV in the long run.

 

[twizzybop]

I am not sure what your point is here. It is exactly what I have been saying.

As for why, if not for information, it is an anti-colluding rule. It is in place to keep the game fair. To stop two players from raising a third out, and one just folding and mucking to give his friend the pot.

LOL I dunno, you just beat me to the punch. I don't normally go looking on the internet for rulls. I figure most know the rules, so I was copying and pasting and you just beat me to the punch. I am sorry...

I just like to remember and know the rules of any game I am playing. I admit looking em up isn't my thing. LOL then again another card game I play has a boatload of rules with extensive comprehensive rules if need be and remembering every single one, at times I have to look up. Again sorry just a habit as well

 

[twizzybop]

You realize that this attitude is counter-productive to keeping weak players happy and contributing to your game, right? Don't shame the fish. Don't make them feel publicly embarrassed for calling down with weak and unwinnable hands. Don't make them feel stupid for chasing gutshot straights. They might stop doing those things, and you make a lot of money when they do them.

You won. Be happy enough with that. It would be great to also see their cards, but let them save a little bit of face. It is more +EV in the long run.

First I don't point fingers or laugh at them at all. No name calling or anything, I don't say anything of the sort. I was taught long time ago, cards read themselves. I have even see dealers misread the cards but also know they are human and I don't finger point/laugh at them either.

However I also like my other card game will help the new player along by showing them simple things to actually help them as well become better players. Even though I do like to compete, however I play to have fun and enjoy playing. Competing comes second over that. I am not really out for the money but the sheer enjoyment and fun that comes from it.

But to me, yes rules are rules and should be followed

 

[vinnie]

LOL I dunno, you just beat me to the punch. I don't normally go looking on the internet for rulls. I figure most know the rules, so I was copying and pasting and you just beat me to the punch. I am sorry...

I just like to remember and know the rules of any game I am playing. I admit looking em up isn't my thing. LOL then again another card game I play has a boatload of rules with extensive comprehensive rules if need be and remembering every single one, at times I have to look up. Again sorry just a habit as well

I thought you were quoting the extra, like it was saying something different than what we already knew. I didn't realize you hadn't seen my post. Probably posted it while you were looking.

First I don't point fingers or laugh at them at all. No name calling or anything, I don't say anything of the sort. I was taught long time ago, cards read themselves. I have even see dealers misread the cards but also know they are human and I don't finger point/laugh at them either.

However I also like my other card game will help the new player along by showing them simple things to actually help them as well become better players. Even though I do like to compete, however I play to have fun and enjoy playing. Competing comes second over that. I am not really out for the money but the sheer enjoyment and fun that comes from it.

But to me, yes rules are rules and should be followed

The rule allows for all hands to be shown, but does not demand it. Outside of teaching someone to play, which would normally be a home-game situation, I don't offer advice to other players. You never know how they will take it or how the rest of the table will feel about you helping another opponent.

You may never say something or point it out, but most people know they shouldn't be chasing gut-shot draws. They know they shouldn't call with K-5 offsuit preflop. You don't need to say anything, they already know. And, exposing their bad play to the table is going to embarrass them. Even if they don't know, you can't stop another player at the table from saying something about their play.

It is just counter productive to a good atmosphere.

 

[MstrBlast3r]

I was playing a live tournament a little while ago, reached a showdown (not all-in), and I lost and mucked my cards. My opponent asked the dealer if he could see my cards and she said yes and flipped them over.

Is this right? Could he ask to see my cards?

Yep ... he is allowed ... most won't ask as it is generally consider bad etiquette.

 

[marakhovskii]

This is a sign of poor parenting, but it is within the rules

 

[melodyman169]

It isn't fair on my mind. It can ruin your reputation at the table.

 

[twizzybop]

LOL I didn't say teach/show at the table. Would it not bother you if the person who mucked his/her cards actually had you beat? It wouldn't bother you knowing that somewhere in a poker hand that you won but didn't have the winning hand?

Yet let's not follow the rules because it isn't demanded?

Good atmosphere is following the rules. That is just the way it is plain and simple

 

[OzExorcist]

It is 'allowed' but it is also considered rude to ask to see mucked cards. It is like calling time on someone. It is within your rights, but it should only be done when there are exceptional reasons for it. Curiosity isn't [generally] considered a good enough reason. Someone who does this frequently will definitely be unpopular at the card room.

^ this is 100% correct.

is this correct? if I fold, it is not to see them or only with my consent

Absolutely not!! I play live in the Chicagoland areas and Indiana and have played on Vegas and never seen anything like that.. I probably would have called the Pit Boss to inquire about that.. What State where you playing in and at what casino?? That sounds pretty sketchy..

only with your consent

What could be causing the confusion here is that this hand was at showdown. If OP had folded before the showdown then absolutely, villain has no right to see the cards unless OP wants to show them. But once the hand goes to showdown, they're entitled to see the cards as they've "paid to see".

 

[subaru16162]

It was in the UK, Grosvenor Casino. I was put off but I didn't do anything about it at the time

In the UK it is a standard at showdown to see the opponents cards and not bad etiquette unlike in the US. Also played at the grovesnor, genting casino, aria and dusk till dawn.

 

[emeraldsrus]

I believe if you are in early position the player after you can get to see your cards at showdown.

 

[TheNutz4You]

in certain situations I see it as ok, but if done repeatedly then I think it becomes an issue.