VERBAL Binding?

[FrankieFire]

Hey All... I have been playing poker for 30 years and have a situation that is in the gray area and wanting to hear your position on this if it was you.

I am all in with a player for 1k. It's the new dealer's first hand and still getting settled in... I show him my set of 7s, showing him as I keep cards in my hand, I keep them there as he looks, and I ask him you see em? He says yes, starts to pass his chips and I muck. The dealer wasn't controlling the game and just gathered the cards never verbally controlling our actions then started pushing chips to him.... Then guy lays his pocket queen's face up..... the whole room hears me at this point. I've never lost my cool and am very easy going because im getting cheated with dishonest actions. Im a Marine and Fireman and took allot to hold back physically...So I have other player confirmed he saw my hand and heard him say u see my hand... Floor rules to give him the money....Gaming commission is investigating got the call today....

Would like to hear your well thought out answers that can either help me have my beliefs upheld w Commission or reasons why I have no claim to the win...

 

[s0ftdumps]

what?

 

[FrankieFire]

what?

What did I not explain? The player verbally said he saw my hand after I asked him. He had queens I had set of 7s.... So he recognized he lost then I folded. The dealer pushed chips his way and the disagreement...You know when you play allot your actions start to get more causal normally flipping them and not talking letting the cards read is my normal actions. I've played this guy before and never had someone verbally acknowledge my cards when i showed him...then watch me fold then say I mucked...

 

[I Live Poker]

what a strange situation! the lack of communication is complicated. Why wouldn't you fold a set flop with 77, right? Was it a money game?
And did the other player accept the dealer's action of pushing the chips to him? Because if he saw his hand he knew he was losing with QQ, so he should do the right thing and let the dealer know what happened, since he was distracted.

 

[FrankieFire]

Yes cash game. Right doing the right thing is my argument....especially after I yelled saying you said yes u see my cards never argued the fact he lost.... Took my money cause I mucked. Even player next to him confirmed he saw my cards and heard him confirm it.

 

[Tammy]

I know it sucks because you had the best hand, but I'm afraid this was your fault. You mucked your hand before your opponent showed his hand. In any poker room I've played in, it would go to the other player. Hell, they don't even let me pick the cards up off the table - it isn't allowed. Doesn't matter that the player saw your hand or not - You threw your cards in the muck, essentially folding the best hand.

I'm curious though to know your table positions, how the hand played out, what were the board cards, etc. Were you all in preflop? Or at a different spot in the hand? Just curious why you wouldn't flip your cards up to show, or wait for the dealer to prompt you both?

 

[FrankieFire]

We were heads after the flop. 7 3 9. All in after the turn....he showed it on table I showed him without laying it down. I was 2 casual just showing him agreed...again asking you see it. Says yes...why would I think the hand isn’t over. He was counting his stack to pay me until dealer shoved his way...It changed when the dealer moved his chips 2 him. Then he said I mucked. I blame the dealer for not paying attention and controlling game. And his shady move. I'm gonna see what the gaming commission rules. They are reviewing it now. Having another player hear us and acknowledgement what happen has 2 mean more than what is perceived as just a muck....

 

[dannystanks]

Don’t EVER muck your winning hand, you table it and keep your hand on it until those chip are pushed to you. Tough lesson.

 

[YLAN]

The player verbally said he saw my hand after I asked him. He had queens I had set of 7s.... So he recognized he lost then I folded. The dealer pushed chips his way and the disagreement...

Howdy bud. As you indicated that you have been playing for 30 years then you must agree that any ruling is made solely by the dealer or supervisor & not by the players. Like in a basketball game where you would claim that it was not you who committed the foul & even if any player would want to claim the foul, the referee ruling that you committed the foul would stick. As in your situation, even if the other player would acknowledge that he lost it would be irrelevant to the dealer since you mucked your cards ahead & MUST rule to ship the pot to the other player who held the last live cards.

 

[FrankieFire]

Howdy bud. As you indicated that you have been playing for 30 years then you must agree that any ruling is made solely by the dealer or supervisor & not by the players. Like in a basketball game where you would claim that it was not you who committed the foul & even if any player would want to claim the foul, the referee ruling that you committed the foul would stick. As in your situation, after this, even if the other player would acknowledge that he lost it would be irrelevant to the dealer since you mucked your cards ahead & MUST rule to ship the pot to the other player.

I get it my brother. But the integrity of a man saying he saw my cards to turn around and take money he recognized he didn't win is a special kind of asshole.... The dealer in this case had no control of the game it was his first hand and was clueless what even happened....They brought in chips at same time as well... If that was in a different environment he is not taking that money.... Thanks for your input everyone....

 

[YLAN]

I get it my brother.

Howdy bud. It takes a special kind of person to accept a mistake.

Don't feel bad already because we all commit mistakes. On the question, however, is verbal binding? The answer is yes.

Don't commit same mistake that happened to me decades ago when I was a newbie in a cash game. It was also after the flop when villain made a reraise. I was contemplating to bluff as I did not hit the flop & during my action I pointed to the pot (asking the dealer how much is in the pot), I asked "$125???" To my surprise the dealer exclaimed "Reraise to $125!" I said I am just asking how much is in the pot but dealer exclaimed that verbal announcements are binding! Even called the supervisor who made the same ruling - no one believed me that I am just asking how much is in the pot! Of course villain went all-in & I lost a huge bankroll that day as I also was unable to get out of tilt! Since then, I shut my mouth at the tables as much as possible.

 

[Poker_Mike]

Call it a $500 lesson.

I know some players who always table their hands - even losing ones, which I am not a personal fan of - letting the table know how to beat you.

he recognized he lost then I folded.

"Then i folded." is all the Commission will focus on.

People fold superior hands all the time. Dealer can't guess why and then follows the rules.

All your opponent saw was 77 and you asked him if he saw them and he said yes.

You didn't ask him if he sees you beat him or that "...i win".

Where exactly is his verbal?

But him cutting out chips to pay you might show up on camera.

Dealer didn't pull in the bets before the flop?

letting the cards read is my normal actions

Uhm, should have done that this time, because....

I'm afraid this was your fault.

In live poker you must table your hand to win the pot. Do you have a copy of the rules from that room?

I have seen times when a player such as yourself waves the cards around in the air, sometimes showing the whole table and the dealer is literally waiting for him to put them faceup on the table....why?

gonna see what the gaming commission rules

Exactly! Firstly I would expect them to uphold the floors decision. Maybe exception is if the camera(s) can clearly see your hand you show him.

Table the hand for the cameras is exactly what the Commission would want.

Another reason to table a hand is for all players at the table to see it. Especially the other players who paid something in the beginning of the hand.

dealer in this case had no control of the game

Ahem, apparently the dealer did what he/she was trained to do which is to push the pot to the winning tabled hand. Period.

To my surprise the dealer exclaimed "Reraise to $125!" I said I am just asking how much is in the pot but dealer exclaimed that verbal announcements are binding!

Unfortunately for you the dealer was correct!

I always think of it like attending an auction. Don't randomly say numbers out loud!

I would actually say to the dealer, "I'm just asking a question, how many chips are in the pot?" Because then you should be able to say numbers out loud.

Or cutting chips before calling/raising, "I'm just counting how many chips I have."

But say things clearly lol

 

[Emily Trott]

Call it a $500 lesson.

I know some players who always table their hands - even losing ones, which I am not a personal fan of - letting the table know how to beat you.

I always table my cards mainly because I might have missed something and other players or the dealer may spot it. It is also because of my personal belief that a showdown should be exactly that, a showdown. You don't keep your gun in it's holster when that time comes.

 

[Poker_Mike]

I always table my cards mainly because I might have missed something and other players or the dealer may spot it. It is also because of my personal belief that a showdown should be exactly that, a showdown. You don't keep your gun in it's holster when that time comes.

You can probably think of 2 or 3 times when you were pushed the pot because you didn't see that you rivered a baby flush or a straight.

Conversely I can think of a few times when the dealer is pushing the pot to my opponent and I have to point to my cards to identify the winning hand. Sometimes they were massive pots that got me to final tables.

 

[Pokerpoet2]

Nothing speaks louder at a Poker Table than actions, simply because Verbal communication between Players and/or Dealer can always be miss-heard I have lost count of how many times Fold and Call have been confused because of a person's accent.
So to be sure, your actions are often more important than what you say at the table, I witnessed a player who was juggling a chip in his hand twirling it in his fingers when his opponent declared All-in, by accident he dropped his chip onto the table and the dealer made the decision that it constituted a Call, even though the player never declared "Call" but by pushing one single chip forward it is considered a call. Whether the bet is one chip or his whole stack.
So it is wise to be aware of your actions, just as much as what you say!
Never think that what you show or say to a dealer is always understood, make your decisions and actions perfectly clear to everyone sat at the table, regardless if they are involved in the hand or not. By laying your cards face down on the table and only showing the Dealer does not always mean you are calling but has to be accepted as a fold by the dealer. Remember, Show one, Show all!

 

[Luvepoker]

This is sick and I don't blame you for being upset but the one thing that sticks out to me is you mucked your cards. When you put your cards in the muck you surrendered the hand is what I have been told. If you think this is from my experience, you would be correct.

While I did not lose as much as you did the one thing, I learned is to always protect your hand until the chips are pushed your way and only let the dealer grab your cards. A friend of mine is a dealer in the poker room at the local casino has also confirmed this for me.

 

[Tammy]

We were heads after the flop. 7 3 9. All in after the turn....he showed it on table I showed him without laying it down. I was 2 casual just showing him agreed...again asking you see it. Says yes...why would I think the hand isn’t over. He was counting his stack to pay me until dealer shoved his way...It changed when the dealer moved his chips 2 him. Then he said I mucked. I blame the dealer for not paying attention and controlling game. And his shady move. I'm gonna see what the gaming commission rules. They are reviewing it now. Having another player hear us and acknowledgement what happen has 2 mean more than what is perceived as just a muck....

Yeah, but this isn't a casual game at your house, between buddies, it's in a poker room at a professional establish that has clear rules. Did you show the dealer your hand? How is he/she supposed to know what you have? As someone pointed out, when you muck your hand, you are surrendering it. That's also why you use a card protector, to protect your hand from flying cards (whether dealing or players mucking their hands). I don't think anything that the dealer did was shady, sorry.

 

[fundiver199]

I always table my cards mainly because I might have missed something and other players or the dealer may spot it. It is also because of my personal belief that a showdown should be exactly that, a showdown. You don't keep your gun in it's holster when that time comes.

Exactly. There is a reason, why its called showdown and not muckdown. Even professional players have occationally misread the board and mucked the winning hand. Or maybe they were bluffing but got called by a worse hand.