Villain Showing Cards before All-In call

[Erik343]

I was playing at Stones gambling Hall in Citrus Heights. I was playing 1$/2$ no limit. I had top and bottom two pair and the villain had bottom two pair. The villain was a tight nit.

I kept betting and betting. Then on the river I shoved 100$ with $15 left behind my stack. The guy considered calling. So he asked me do you want me to call? I kept my mouth shut.

He then flipped over both cards revealing a worse hand. He asked me again if I could beat his hand? I said nothing.

He looked like he was going to fold so I aimed to do something weird. So I pulled out my cell phone and started to listen to music. He folded.

Is this unethical or bad etiquette? At Thunder Valley in Lincoln, CA they don’t tolerate this table talk. I felt like if he did not table talk I would of been up another 100$

What do you guys think? Should this be against the rules of poker? Is it angle shooting? Is it bad etiquette?

Thanks!

 

[MK_]

Well angle shooting is more trying to get an edge or skating the rules somehow.....

wouldn't say that applies when it's just you two in the hand and the guys trying to decide to call or not,

maybe it was the size of your bet that made him fold, maybe it was your body language,

cash games tend to be more lenient with table talk, assuming no one else is in the hand,

tournaments are another story but I don't see an issue with this...

 

[Station_Master]

Dont see an issue with this tbh. He was just trying to get a read.

 

[SpanRmonka]

In the UK this is perfectly fine, players will chat and ask you stuff, and try and get a read in all kinds of situations. I find just stare straight ahead, and don't react works as good as anything, don't engage, don't react.....just let them make their decision.

At the same time, don't overly worry too much about this one hand. It sounds like he was folding anyway, but he sounds like one of those guys that has to show he can make big folds.

In reality, its a decent fold but after you showed a lot of strength throughout the hand, without knowing the rest of the board, its a fold he should probs make.

Do I like all this kind of stuff, no not really, but it's part of the game. You see it at the top level too, and of course this filters down. Some players just love to make the game more dramtic than it needs to be. But they will also give you info at other stages due to their chat during hands.

 

[Reddog888]

They will be penalized in subsequent hands, but they are still allowed to continue playing this hand legally. If you are the player behind them, take full advantage of this.

 

[fundiver199]

Stones Gambling Hall... So did you get to play with Mike Postle? As for your question I think, table talk is completely within the rules, when its a heads-up pot, and action is on him.

 

[puzzlefish]

Do you want me to call?

The answer is just "yes", and then take a sip from your drink.

End of.

 

[WrongUsername]

nothing wrong besides playing live poker.

 

[Alpha737]

Staying silent is 100% allowed — you’re not required to help an opponent decide.
He exposed his hand and asked questions, that’s on him.
Using your phone is borderline etiquette-wise, but not angle shooting unless it breaks house rules. Some rooms are stricter than others.
Not cheating, not unethical — just know the room rules.

 

[machinm19]

I concur with SpanRmonka that in the UK this is perfectly normal, all kinds of mind games go on it’s a look ahead and ignore situation. You played the hand correctly in my view.

I believe I’d have done similar anyway, I actually love the river shove lots of people would call you off with that hand.

 

[Erik343]

I believe that this might be angle shooting, so I’ll just opt to play at Thunder Valley where this is against the rules. Plus there are more fish.

Also, after he flipped his cards over he said he had a tell on me: I was nervous. If it was against the rules, not flipping his cards over, he might have called while not seeing that tell.

 

[Poker_Mike]

I was playing at Stones Gambling Hall in Citrus Heights. I was playing 1$/2$ no limit. I had top and bottom two pair and the villain had bottom two pair. The villain was a tight nit.

I kept betting and betting. Then on the river I shoved 100$ with $15 left behind my stack. The guy considered calling. So he asked me do you want me to call? I kept my mouth shut.

He then flipped over both cards revealing a worse hand. He asked me again if I could beat his hand? I said nothing.

He looked like he was going to fold so I aimed to do something weird. So I pulled out my cell phone and started to listen to music. He folded.

Is this unethical or bad etiquette? At Thunder Valley in Lincoln, CA they don’t tolerate this table talk. I felt like if he did not table talk I would of been up another 100$

What do you guys think? Should this be against the rules of poker? Is it angle shooting? Is it bad etiquette?

Thanks!

I don't see a real problem with this behavior if you were headsup when he did it - especially in a cash game.

I have exposed my cards myself looking for a read and of course my opponent insists on calling the floor.

To quote the floor, "This behavior is frowned upon but not illegal."

I am looking for a real facial reaction from my opponent. Even if they avoid looking at my cards tells me something.

They always call when they ask me if I want a call and my answer is always an overeager, "Sure!!"

Now my answer is, "I want the call but I don't know what kind of little bits of shit you have in your hand that will beat me by the river."

They still call !!!

 

[fundiver199]

I believe that this might be angle shooting

I dont see, how this is an angle, when he is the only player left to act. An angle is, if you do something to affect the decision of your opponent. Like for instance pretend, you just wanted to call but "accidentally" raised to make your hand look weaker, than it actually is. Or pretend you acted out of turn, even you knew, it was not your turn. That kind of stuff.

so I’ll just opt to play at Thunder Valley where this is against the rules.

What do they then do, if someone expose their cards? Is there a penalty for that, or is the hand even declared dead? It sounds a bit strange to me, and there are lots of televised hands, where someone expose their cards either deliberately or accidentally, while they are still involved in the hand.

Plus there are more fish.

Thats a good reason to choose another room.

Also, after he flipped his cards over he said he had a tell on me: I was nervers. If it was against the rules, not flipping his cards over, he might have called while not seeing that tell.

To be honest with you developing a good poker face and not giving away tells is part of live poker. If you struggle with this, maybe consider using sunglasses, if the room allow it. Or play online.

 

[csabika94]

A Citrus Heights-i Stones Gambling Hallban játszottam. 1$/2$-os limit nélküli téteken játszottam. Nekem és a gonosztevőnek is két-két párja volt. A gonosztevő egy szűk tét volt.

Csak hívtam és hívtam. Aztán a rivernél all-in mentem 100 dollárral, miközben még 15 dollárom volt. A srác fontolóra vette a megadást. Szóval megkérdezte, hogy szeretnéd-e, hogy megadjam? Én befogtam a számat.

Ezután mindkét lapot felfordította, felfedve egy rosszabb kezet. Újra megkérdezte, hogy le tudom-e győzni az övét? Nem mondtam semmit.

Úgy nézett ki, mintha össze akarna csukódni, ezért valami furcsát akartam csinálni. Elővettem a mobilomat, és elkezdtem zenét hallgatni. Összecsukódott.

Ez etikátlan vagy rossz etikett? A Thunder Valley-ben, Lincolnban, Kaliforniában nem tolerálják az ilyen asztali beszélgetést. Úgy éreztem, ha nem beszélne az asztalnál, akkor még 100 dollárral nyertem volna.

Mit gondoltok srácok? Ennek ellent kellene lennie a póker szabályainak? Szögből lövésnek minősül? Rossz etikettnek számít?

Köszönöm!

in a cash game this is accepted on the last street, he quickly analyzed your reactions and decided... probably because he could not read it from your game, which could help him in his decision

 

[ThreeeBigB]

With only you two in the pot i think its not bad etiquette, just a clever way to get a read

 

[EarnDAStack]

You shouldn't have been allowed to use your phone once you've looked at your cards until you've folded. If you're able to do that at Thunder Valley I would consider not playing there as game integrity could be significantly compromised unless they have other precautions in place. That's kind of wild to me.

Villain is generally allowed to say whatever he wants about both your hands in a heads up pot, multi-way they are significantly more restricted as they can't say anything that would benefit one player at the detriment of the other. You can flip your cards over as that action doesn't in itself indicate a binding decision in poker, however if you flip your cards up and thrown them towards the middle of the table or dealer that action COULD be considered a fold if the dealer mistook your intent so if you do this or see this make sure the player still protects their cards because mistakes happen.

GL

EDS

 

[Kpaprince]

Interesting spot. From how you describe it, I wouldn’t call what you did angle shooting.

The villain is the one who crossed the line first by:

Asking you if you want him to call
Asking if you could beat his hand
And especially by showing his cards before acting

In most rooms, once a player exposes their hand during a decision, they’re either warned or their hand can even be ruled dead, depending on house rules. That’s definitely not standard etiquette.

As for you pulling out your phone and disengaging — that feels more like avoiding table talk than inducing it. You didn’t say anything misleading, didn’t lie, and didn’t misrepresent your hand. If anything, you removed yourself from the interaction.

Could a floor potentially warn against phone use in an all-in spot? Maybe, depending on the room. But ethically, I don’t see an issue, especially given the villain initiated the whole situation.