Don't Bet, Never Fold Phenomenon

[Flyer35]

Ever wonder what the psychology of not betting but refusing to fold is all about? You see it all the time. A player has a marginal hand that they are afraid to bet, but fearless when it comes to calling any bet by an opponent. You could make a living playing against that phenomenon, and I expect many pros probably do.

 

[monkeytilter]

It's just classic loose passive.
I don't think players who are like that have ever thought with any depth about their strategies, so they are just operating at monkey brain level at the table.

Monkey brain senses their hand is not one of the ones that makes them feel secure (like random two-pair), so no bet - the passive.
Monkey brain doesn't like giving up resources, even if they are crappy ones, so doesn't fold facing a bet- the loose.

Agreed, highly profitable bet-fold strategies can be built to exploit this behaviour once we get passed the exasperation/frustration stage.

As a counter point, loose-passivity can be the highest EV in certain spots or vs certain villains, all part of the rock-paper-scissors of the game.

 

[Ricowz]

When u see a player with that loose passive style tag him, and then simply adjust against that style and fold vs aggression.

 

[fundiver199]

Monkey brain senses their hand is not one of the ones that makes them feel secure (like random two-pair), so no bet - the passive.
Monkey brain doesn't like giving up resources, even if they are crappy ones, so doesn't fold facing a bet- the loose.

In addition to this people also hate to get bluffed, which is why, we see this "table sheriff" mentality, where big bets (seen as "bullying") are called even by very weak holdings.

As a counter point, loose-passivity can be the highest EV in certain spots or vs certain villains, all part of the rock-paper-scissors of the game.

I would not say, that a loose-passive style can be the highest EV, but it can definitely be profitable to use medium strong hands as bluff catchers against overly aggressive players. Like if we have A5 on a board like A83, then rather than C- bet, maybe we check back and call their turn and river bets on most runouts.

 

[monkeytilter]

In addition to this people also hate to get bluffed, which is why, we see this "table sheriff" mentality, where big bets (seen as "bullying") are called even by very weak holdings.

I would not say, that a loose-passive style can be the highest EV, but it can definitely be profitable to use medium strong hands as bluff catchers against overly aggressive players. Like if we have A5 on a board like A83, then rather than C- bet, maybe we check back and call their turn and river bets on most runouts.

I wasn't suggesting it as a style (it is definitely the most losing "style"), but to dismiss it completely it is a mistake.

Use it in the right spots and against the right villains as I said and as per your examples

 

[Poker_Mike]

Ever wonder what the psychology of not betting but refusing to fold is all about? You see it all the time. A player has a marginal hand that they are afraid to bet, but fearless when it comes to calling any bet by an opponent. You could make a living playing against that phenomenon, and I expect many pros probably do.

Like the Monkey said, "it's classic loose passive".

I love this behavior.

I try to exploit it to the maximum.

Sometimes the villain will get there and beat you on the river.

They want to see flops, turns and rivers......make them pay for it!

 

[fundiver199]

I wasn't suggesting it as a style (it is definitely the most losing "style"), but to dismiss it completely it is a mistake.

Use it in the right spots and against the right villains as I said and as per your examples

I think, its the word "loose", that separate us. A passive line can definitely be the highest EV option in certain situations, but that does not mean, we are playing loose. We are not limping in with J4 of spades UTG, just because its sooooted for instance. We just take some of the hands, that we play, and use a more passive line to maximize EV, so its more of a tight-passive than loose-passive approach. On a HUD it will make us show up with stats like VPIP 21 / PFR 15 / AF 2, whereas a loose-passive player might have stats like VPIP 37 / PFR 7 /AF 1.

 

[Sunz of Beaches]

Sounds like 80 % of players on replay poker in community games what u describe there. Their favorite hands to execute that stuff: aj and kq. No raises pre (someone could have ak!) but calling off every amount possible 😅

 

[monkeytilter]

Sounds like 80 % of players on replay poker in community games what u describe there. Their favorite hands to execute that stuff: aj and kq. No raises pre (someone could have ak!) but calling off every amount possible 😅

Yeah, it's more of the fun player/casual approach.
End of the day everyone approaches and plays the game in a manner that suits them (even if it is grossly sub-optimal😜)

 

[puzzlefish]

Ever wonder what the psychology of not betting but refusing to fold is all about? You see it all the time. A player has a marginal hand that they are afraid to bet, but fearless when it comes to calling any bet by an opponent. You could make a living playing against that phenomenon, and I expect many pros probably do.

One possible situation is that they're just letting the opponent do all the betting because they don't have a concept of their hand's value or the likelihood that they will hold a winning hand given the betting action of their opponents.

I doubt you would be able to isolate this player type consistently enough to make a steady profit. They don't last long at the table and it's a matter of time before they bust.

 

[Sunz of Beaches]

Yeah, it's more of the fun player/casual approach.
End of the day everyone approaches and plays the game in a manner that suits them (even if it is grossly sub-optimal😜)

Sure, everyone can play however they want. Nothing better then opponents who cant or are not willing to improve.

I have to chuckle on the inside everytime i see a player not willing to put money in the pot but when someone else does it they suddenly willing to change that careful approach 😅

 

[fundiver199]

I have to chuckle on the inside everytime i see a player not willing to put money in the pot but when someone else does it they suddenly willing to change that careful approach 😅

Yeah its pretty amazing to see someone limp into the pot with a hand like KTo, and then call it off facing a big jam like 17BB

 

[Baco]

I think it comes from a mix of fear of being raised and loss aversion. Betting feels like “putting money at risk,” while calling feels safer, even though it often isn’t. Many players are uncomfortable defining their hand’s strength themselves, so they let the opponent do it for them.

As you said, it’s very exploitable. Against these players, thin value betting becomes extremely profitable, while bluffing loses value. They don’t want to bet, but they really don’t want to fold — and that imbalance is where the edge comes from.

 

[hardongear]

The majority don't like and hate thought that they're being bluffed and play for entertainment. Fact: Folding poker is boring poker....boring poker is winning poker. I love calling stations.

Cheers!!!

 

[Mario7]

Ever wonder what the psychology of not betting but refusing to fold is all about? You see it all the time. A player has a marginal hand that they are afraid to bet, but fearless when it comes to calling any bet by an opponent. You could make a living playing against that phenomenon, and I expect many pros probably do.

IMO such players are... JEWELS! But my impression is very different. They are not so easy to find these days. Actually I am afraid to squeeze high with premium cards, because most people just fold. And I play the lowest possible level - 2NL at GG.

 

[Poker_Mike]

I am afraid to squeeze high with premium cards, because most people just fold.

I don't raise big.

I am betting and raising for value only.

I am usually not trying to get their whole stack in the pot.

3x works for me, then bet flop, bet turn, bet the river and hope/pray that they don't get there by the river....

And it is easy enough if they lead out with a bet or raise on any street. They have something and if I only have A-high then I fold.

Good luck !