hey, i'm 9k. #3

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 24, 2013

ok, I get it! x/c flop.

as I x/red I realised I rep nothing but FD's..

anything useful to say about after that?

JOEBOB69 · Mar 24, 2013

Well both lines rep a flush draw.
how about 3bet pre,move on to the next hand.

WVHillbilly · Mar 24, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
ok, I get it! x/c flop.

as I x/red I realised I rep nothing but FD's..

anything useful to say about after that?

Fold. Assume he only 3bets the flop with like TPTK+ hands and BETTER flush draws and we're suddenly not getting such a good price to call and try to turn our flush.

I personally don't mind the flop raise at all and had you posted the hand without showing his flop 3bet I think a lot of the analysis would have been different.

duggs · Mar 24, 2013

call then c/j some turns. dont really expect him to have that strong of a range given 3bet sizing on flop. i dont think im being results orientated by saying call flop, r/f draws seems silly v a lp open on this texture and alot of our unclean outs will be good when we turn them + we have backdoors +raising later streets on turn cards can rep a stronger range.

JCgrind · Mar 24, 2013

im fine with c/r flop. fold to the 3b though.

i dont think your line really matters as long as you c/r sometimes, donk sometimes and c/c sometimes.

look at his fold flop Cbet to raise stat?

acky100 · Mar 24, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
ok, I get it! x/c flop.

as I x/red I realised I rep nothing but FD's..

anything useful to say about after that?

what hmp said as usual, x/r seems pretty poor but i doubt it'll ever stop the majority of micro stakes regs check raising them 90% thankfully, gotta disagree with Jc's logic a lot there, sounds like "lets take lines that make us less money sometimes, and lines that make us more money other times"

you seem to think the problem is that all you rep is flush draws, that definitely effects part of it but the problem is a really fundamental one, in more simple terms what do we want to be the case when putting money in the pot vs a range of hands, to make us money? what does poker revolve around?

I wrote an essay about this but am not gonna be around for a while and need to stop getting carried away so have cut it down, anyways, i think you will get the idea if you just dumb it down to how poker works then you will see why check raising QTs is generally gonna be worse than calling here

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 26, 2013

just kinda confused by this in general, don't see what he shoves on the turn ever?

maybe i'm bad and can't see it, better players explain villains line please

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $73.66 (VPIP: 44.58, PFR: 21.69, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 84)
SB: $52.52 (VPIP: 27.27, PFR: 20.13, 3Bet Preflop: 10.91, Hands: 156)
Hero (BB): $62.36
UTG: $76.45 (VPIP: 22.31, PFR: 17.36, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, Hands: 123)
CO: $63.75 (VPIP: 22.81, PFR: 17.54, 3Bet Preflop: 7.41, Hands: 58)

SB posts SB $0.25, Hero posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has Q:diamond: T:heart:

fold, CO raises to $1.50, fold, fold, Hero calls $1.00

Flop: ($3.25, 2 players) Q:spade: T:spade: 8:club:
Hero checks, CO bets $2.54, Hero raises to $7.00, CO calls $4.46

Turn: ($17.25, 2 players) 8:heart:
Hero bets $10.00, CO raises to $55.25 and is all-in, fold

CO wins $35.57

duggs · Mar 26, 2013

AKss Ajss KJss 88 A8s J9s Axss

JOEBOB69 · Mar 26, 2013

KK+,Aks,AJs
Edit: after seeing duggs post KJs,and A8 also

acky100 · Mar 27, 2013

It's close without reads, can go pretty fast from being a call or fold depending on what we say about villain. If he's playing around half his flush combos like this and J9s and a couple boats then it's probably just a fold but its real close, if you think he plays all his flushes like this, snap call, if you think he pretty much never plays J9s like this snap call.

Basically we cant choose right play here imo, that means call or fold are irrelevant to our bottom line, we can learn what conditions need to be true to make us want to definitively call or fold though i guess.

baudib1 · Mar 27, 2013

re: QQ hand

I think it's close tbh. I think we are overanalyzing this because nits don't really adjust. If you think he is really widening his range you are giving him too much credit. He is 3-betting from the SB vs. an EP open, we're talking about a likely multitabling nit who probably didn't even look at the last hand because he is too busy folding KQs on 3 other tables.

Of course we have QfreakingQ so I don't hate 4-bet/getting it in because ... well, we have QfreakingQ and his range isn't tight enough that we are stomped. Calling is probably better because the times when we are ahead the SB will play pretty straightforward and not get too fancy with the fish in the pot.

re: QT hand

don't hate raising the flop but I'm calling mostly, mostly because i'd float here pretty damn wide and there's so little for us to C-R flop with that isn't a draw.

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 27, 2013

learning mixed games today, played some 8 game with Ducky for the last hour and gonna play some 08/Courchevel real soon.

might have some hands to post up later tonight, if anyone wants to sweat/help me learn skype me

Ducky7 · Mar 27, 2013

QT really is a toughy, saw it straight away and thought fold coz he never plays a draw like this, however after more thinking... our range is filled with draws (obvs) which makes the c/r sexy OTF and imo some regs think oh i better protect my hand vs all these draws that could beat me OTR, admittedly most of the hands he does this with are OP's and maybe occasionally KQ/AQ if hes bad enough?

I think what Acky said is spot on about knowing how the villain plays semi draws, based on the pool at 50nl im not expecting to see semi's here too often they just call with them IP all the time

x/c'ing the turn could be nice though as it does allow him to bet semi bluffs and stops things like this from happening.
Also im x/f'ing river if it breaks and he barrels again

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 28, 2013

right, no real spots today just kinda confused here.

obv we have the nuts, just don't see what he x/c's turns with that he doesn't bet anyway?

ranges and river sizing would be nice guys!

PokerStars - €0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): €106.88
SB: €80.12 (VPIP: 23.40, PFR: 17.97, 3Bet Preflop: 5.76, Hands: 2,119)
BB: €55.56 (VPIP: 22.78, PFR: 15.19, 3Bet Preflop: 12.90, Hands: 79)
UTG: €40.00 (VPIP: 37.04, PFR: 25.93, 3Bet Preflop: 17.65, Hands: 82)
MP: €92.23 (VPIP: 30.18, PFR: 21.89, 3Bet Preflop: 5.00, Hands: 172)
CO: €52.71 (VPIP: 24.05, PFR: 22.78, 3Bet Preflop: 2.94, Hands: 79)

SB posts SB €0.25, BB posts BB €0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.75) Hero has J:club: K:club:

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to €1.25, fold, BB raises to €3.50, Hero calls €2.25

Flop: (€7.25, 2 players) 3:club: Q:spade: 9:club:
BB bets €5.50, Hero calls €5.50

Turn: (€18.25, 2 players) A:club:
BB checks, Hero bets €9.00, BB calls €9.00

River: (€36.25, 2 players) T:heart:
BB checks, Hero?

dj11 · Mar 28, 2013

If bet < 1/2 pot it looks like a value bet and villain might fold
If bet > 1/2 pot it looks like you hit the straight and villain might fold

So you might as well make it look like you are on the steal and bet 1.5 x pot and pray villain hit 2 pair on the flop, or a set or better, the lesser flush.

Matt Vaughan · Mar 28, 2013

He likely check-calls one street (OTT) with a Q in his hand, like KQ or QJ specifically, but don't see us getting much action on the river.

Matt Vaughan · Mar 28, 2013

dj11 said:
If bet < 1/2 pot it looks like a value bet and villain might fold
If bet > 1/2 pot it looks like you hit the straight and villain might fold

So you might as well make it look like you are on the steal and bet 1.5 x pot and pray villain hit 2 pair on the flop, or better, the lesser flush.

Villain has like, no combos of flushes or two pair in his range when he checks the turn. All his nuttish hands have to keep betting.

dj11 · Mar 28, 2013

Scourrge said:
He likely check-calls one street (OTT) with a Q in his hand, like KQ or QJ specifically, but don't see us getting much action on the river.

Assume he hit a Q, with such a wet board OTR it is unlikely he is coming along at all, but if he is then maybe the 'make it look like a steal' bet works as good as any.

And he did c/c the turn, so it suggests he got some piece of it...

Matt Vaughan · Mar 28, 2013

dj11 said:
Assume he hit a Q, with such a wet board OTR it is unlikely he is coming along at all, but if he is then maybe the 'make it look like a steal' bet works as good as any.

And he did c/c the turn, so it suggests he got some piece of it...

Got some piece of what? The board? That's exactly what I just said. The ace is a perfect card for us to try to steal on, so villain will check-call almost any Qx he has. If he holds an ace though he basically has to bet again.

And frankly, people don't over-bet bluff enough for us to be able to bet 1.5x the pot and look like we're stealing. Unless we have some crazy history with the villain, we're not getting paid off unless villain has 2nd nuts, and even then he might fold.

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 28, 2013

dunno how often villain has a Q since QJo doesn't 3bet pre.. KQ/QJs don't 3bet pre either that often since regs don't 3bet merged OOP yet at my limit and even if he did my stats have a kinda high-ish f3b so that'd be bad..

thinking about it most likely holding are suited Ax combos..

carry on.

WVHillbilly · Mar 28, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
dunno how often villain has a Q since QJo doesn't 3bet pre.. KQ/QJs don't 3bet pre either that often since regs don't 3bet merged OOP yet at my limit and even if he did my stats have a kinda high-ish f3b so that'd be bad..

thinking about it most likely holding are suited Ax combos..

carry on.

Against a BTN open he can certainly 3bet hands like QJo, QKo. I'd say his range on the river is some Q containing broadways and a few Ax hands he decided were good to 3bet against your steal range. I'd bet between 1/3 and 1/2 pot on the river because I don't think you're getting much more.

acky100 · Mar 28, 2013

i think an exploitative bet is in order, something small cause he can have stuff like AK, KQ (some regs are gonna be 3betting that) other 1 pair hands that are just going to fold to a bigger bet, he basically reps weak 1 pair hands that want you to check so balance aside i'd just bet a dumb size to get an occasional call from one!

AlwaysPlanAhe · Mar 28, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
right, no real spots today just kinda confused here.

obv we have the nuts, just don't see what he x/c's turns with that he doesn't bet anyway?

ranges and river sizing would be nice guys!

PokerStars - €0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): €106.88
SB: €80.12 (VPIP: 23.40, PFR: 17.97, 3Bet Preflop: 5.76, Hands: 2,119)
BB: €55.56 (VPIP: 22.78, PFR: 15.19, 3Bet Preflop: 12.90, Hands: 79)
UTG: €40.00 (VPIP: 37.04, PFR: 25.93, 3Bet Preflop: 17.65, Hands: 82)
MP: €92.23 (VPIP: 30.18, PFR: 21.89, 3Bet Preflop: 5.00, Hands: 172)
CO: €52.71 (VPIP: 24.05, PFR: 22.78, 3Bet Preflop: 2.94, Hands: 79)

SB posts SB €0.25, BB posts BB €0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.75) Hero has J♣ K♣

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to €1.25, fold, BB raises to €3.50, Hero calls €2.25

Flop: (€7.25, 2 players) 3♣ Q♠ 9♣
BB bets €5.50, Hero calls €5.50

Turn: (€18.25, 2 players) A♣
BB checks, Hero bets €9.00, BB calls €9.00

River: (€36.25, 2 players) T♥
BB checks, Hero?

3bet + cbet + Turn c/c + river check = marginal hand like QcXx, Ax, KK that he isn't keen on folding. Gheybetting $5-8 gets value calls from the marginal range and also gives villain the chance to come back over the top with an unlikely slowplayed strong range or a spazzout bluff if he thinks for some reason he can rep something.

Merits of shoving are that villain will find it hard to fold an ace and will almost definately call with better, problem is the weakass line indicates there wont be many of these hands in his range.

Shove = $37.50
gheybet = $8
2pr+ range = 10% (random)
Total air = 10% (random)
Marginal 1pr = 80%

Shove = 0.1*$37.5 = $3.75
gheybet = 0.8*$8 = $6.40

plus added value of a shove over the top v's gheybet so imo gheybet is more profitable.

acky100 · Mar 28, 2013

I think it might actually be a spot where we can get away with gheybetting our whole range so we can be pretty balanced here hmmm? Hackmeplz, come tell me if that sounds good or that we're all drastically wrong!

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 28, 2013

WVHillbilly said:
Against a BTN open he can certainly 3bet hands like QJo, QKo. I'd say his range on the river is some Q containing broadways and a few Ax hands he decided were good to 3bet against your steal range. I'd bet between 1/3 and 1/2 pot on the river because I don't think you're getting much more.

who do you know that 3bets QJo vs BTN opens at 50nl, its retarded as a bluff since it does well against my opening range, and its retarded to 3bet for value because I don't flat worse often enough + i'm IP.

hey, i'm 9k. #3

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