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Message: [QUOTE="KyleJRM, post: 749213, member: 25910"] If you are going to redefine words however you please, then you really aren't arguing anything but semantics. In one sense, yes, luck and chance have the distinction you are making. But words can have more than one meaning, and one of the meanings of luck (and clearly, context should have made it clear that I was using that meaning) makes it synonymous with chance. You've made up your mind that you want to prove some point about poker being a "sucker game," so you've redefined what things mean. First: "All of the influences have equal weight." This is patently false, and logically virtually impossible. You are committing the logical fallacy of equivocation in this part of your argument. But for the most important failure of your argument, it comes down to this: "By that I meant a generic player of any playing quality level who uses the optimal strategy. So we're in agreement on this point. You put $1 into the pot and, because of the rake, you take out 95 cents of that $1. That makes it by definition a sucker game. Yes, you can compensate by taking 10 cents from some other player so that you collect $1.05 of the pot" You are making a false and arbitrary distinction between "your money" that is returned after a successful hand and "his money." You have attempted to redefine a "sucker game" as one in which the optimal strategy is one that returns less of "your money" than you put in, regardless of what "his money" you may also be returned. That is a 100% false, made-up, logically inaccurate attempt to redefine what a "sucker game" is. A sucker game is simply a game in which the optimal strategy will return less total money than the player puts in over the long term. This is the real definition, and it does not make any distinction between different types of money being returned to the optimal strategist. Any other definition is a false one, and that is why your argument fails. You are basing it on a false definition of "sucker game." [/QUOTE]

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