Angle Shooting

Can someone please explain angle shooting to me? I am not exactly sure what it is. Thanks.

I'm not really sure but I think it's when you say something but do something else? E.g you say raise but only put chips in for a call. I just saw a video on pokerstars channel when a guy did this and the commentators were talking about it.

Any interaction with the table that someone can take in an attempt to influence action. Mostly live but online you will run into someone saying they are going all in when it gets to them or telling you what they have. In my opinion only scumbags tend exploit angle shooting to pad their roll since it only reinforces the view of some that our game is only for hustlers, thieves and their marks.

Here is an angle shoot from a live tournament

Blinds 500/1000
UTG opens for 2500 with stack 22K
MP, stack 35K, counts out 3500 and pushes them forward
Dealer tells MP he has to raise to 4000 as his 1000 more is more than 1/2 the original raise (raise was 1500, 1/2=750)
MP complains that he was only trying to call and was confused, calls the floor, floor confirms the ruling, MP makes it 4000
Comes back to UTG who shoves since MP's raise reopens the pot
MP snap calls with AA

Thats not a bad one but its a little soft. Basically when someone bends the rules in order to influence action. A good one would be betting out of turn to influence action from a player that should be acting before you and so forth. There are many examples. If you wish for more let us know...ive seen some real bad ones

When a player does not shower before a game and stinks and talks about it.

Lol. I have sat by some guys in the poker room that stunk so bad I requested seat change or table change.

Two6JJ said:

Any interaction with the table that someone can take in an attempt to influence action. Mostly live but online you will run into someone saying they are going all in when it gets to them or telling you what they have. In my opinion only scumbags tend exploit angle shooting to pad their roll since it only reinforces the view of some that our game is only for hustlers, thieves and their marks.

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Basically this. Live it manifests in table talk like saying you're going to do X or have X, or false motions to elicit a tell or reaction like motioning like you're going to bet, check, or fold. They hope you visibly react to their false move or speech and give off free information about the strength of your hand. Online mostly in terms of talk to try and elicit a desired response, like insisting you're shoving all in if they call and hoping they fold.

Some angle shooting is hard to pin down but most of it is obvious and some floors (poker room managers) will make an angle shooter honor the motion or verbal declaration in the event they say it while they're on to act or if the action crosses the betting line on their action

You're not a true degenerate if you can't find ways to do this and exploit it. IMO it pretty much "has" to be live for it to within the rules, because saying "I'm going all in when it gets to me" no matter what your actual action is should be a punishable offense and the site operator has a clear history/snapshot of it. I report that kinda shtuff to ACR all the time but "I'm not allowed to know the findings out"

My favorite of all time wasn't the biggest pot I ever snaked but it was a ton of fun.

Live 1/2 100-300 game. I had most likely started with 300 and so would've had probably about at least 450-500 in front of me at the time. The Hero (cuz I'm the villian here) has a good size stack too but I might have him slightly covered.

Sorry that I don't remember the board, the exact bets, etc., just what I did. He had raised preflop and I don't know where I was in terms of position but it had to be early because I used my patented "I check in the dark" move. He fires every street. When it comes to me, I am closing out the action so on the flop I verbalize "I call and I check dark"... To the river, we are now head's up. PLENTY of times in odd spots that I didn't have a good grip on I had checked dark on the river, too, but not this time.

My thought process was, if I HIT my card, it is well disguised and he was enough of a calling station that I wanted to shove to get paid off. My other thought was even if I miss my card, depending on board texture I might be able to convincingly strength and I will want to donk bet. This might require a lead, a small raise by him and a big raise by me to close it off. Even though he was a calling station most of the time, in the right spots with enough pressure he could find a fold. So I haven't checked or acted at all.

River comes and almost instantaneously he turns over his cards. He says something. I don't remember if he had assumed he had won and it wasn't worth a bet or he was concerned that I had rivered him and was upset. But I indicate to the dealer that I haven't acted yet. The dealer is unsure, but thinks it's true. Other players at the table concur and say "yeah, no action yet."

So the floor has to be called. Everything is explained. NOW at THIS casino where I played REGULARLY for YEARS I'd say 99% of the time, they ALWAYS go with whatever the dealer says.

(Aside: This includes a time when the dealer inadvertently shoved an all in pot to the wrong player worth 4.2k. Since I had won, I complained, they got the floor the floor sided with the dealer even though I said "flip back over my cards and see for yourself" (the dealer had turned them over and mucked on top) no "okay, check the video" no ok, so I take a break and go to security and ask to speak to management. Eventually I get the floor manager's boss and they DO check the tapes and they DO give me the money -- damn right)

So the dealer says "yeah, it appears as though he did not check, even though he had checked dark before and had done so most of the night." Floor explains to the now very distraught gentleman that I have not acted. Even though I now see his cards, I get to bet if I want. It was a good sized pot, and he had a decent enough hand, maybe top pair like K or maybe a K that could've lost to an A on the river. Whatever it was, I wouldn't be excited about holding it and having it exposed with the player still to act. He basically shouts "if you give him this pot I will f*ing pick up and leave."

I couldn't resist, it was too easy. Of course he had me beat, I had missed my draw. I didn't even have to bet all in. I either bet 2/3rd or maybe full pot. He doesn't even think, he turns his cards back over and mucks them, starting to collect what was left of his chips, bitching the whole time.

I couldn't resist again, maybe if I were lucky, since he hadn't technically given up his seat I could SUPER tilt him and get him to sit back down and donk it off. I show my hand. It was probably like J high or some nonsense. The whole table erupts and the guy shuffles to the cage quicker than I'd seen anyone before.

Only one person at the table felt bad for him and said I was an ass. Two players at the table said it was "awesome" because he had acted terribly all night and deserved it.

Unfortunately for me, I had a halfway decent relationship with that particular dealer before this "incident." He made it clear to me on a subsequent trip that he felt like I had "used" him. (Okay, I kinda did, but I had to) He was pretty pissed, never spoke to me again unless he ultimately had to and couldn't hide the fact that he seemed to always root for my opponents. I mean, sht, if I p*d off the DEALER that much, I can't imagine how the dude I expose-bluffed felt! Never saw him at the casino again.

Nutcracker69 said:

Unfortunately for me, I had a halfway decent relationship with that particular dealer before this "incident." He made it clear to me on a subsequent trip that he felt like I had "used" him. (Okay, I kinda did, but I had to) He was pretty pissed, never spoke to me again unless he ultimately had to and couldn't hide the fact that he seemed to always root for my opponents. I mean, sht, if I p*d off the DEALER that much, I can't imagine how the dude I expose-bluffed felt! Never saw him at the casino again.

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Im not sure why the dealer would be mad at you, did you miss part of the story? Just seems like you didnt act and he flipped, nothing unusual about that. The rest of the details about what you did before that exact spot are irrelevant, no matter how common. I do not see any angle with this either, unless you somehow motioned or said you were checking while the river was being turned.

detroitjunkie said:

Im not sure why the dealer would be mad at you, did you miss part of the story? Just seems like you didnt act and he flipped, nothing unusual about that. The rest of the details about what you did before that exact spot are irrelevant, no matter how common. I do not see any angle with this either, unless you somehow motioned or said you were checking while the river was being turned.

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Who knows? It wasn't like we were "friends" before that, but we were cool enough. Maybe he is like super rigid as a purist of the game and felt like I manipulated a win (that in his mind I didn't deserve)... but let's keep it real, that's what we do everytime we bluff and win

I don't know, I thought it was angling, but I think the meaning of that term has changed over time.

Particularly at that casino, I do that kinda sht all the time. I will "misread" my hand on showdown hoping to induce a muck. "Flush" I exclaim but then turn over my hand that needed one more. I NEVER would say it and then wait, something about that to me seemed wrong. But if I "misread" and show basically right away, and he "takes the bait" then whatever.

Honestly, though, in X number of years that has NEVER ONCE worked. Usually because the goddamn dealer feels like he is obligated to practically instantaneously correct me. "No, no flush" and then everyone figures out what I have. Other dude shows and TsID. THIS from some dealers who have to take the better part of 10 minutes to figure out a winner if there are 3 at showdown and 1 all in already. Or even worse, if you have 5 or more to showdown at the low limit table (I sht you not) the ENTIRE table flips over their hands, as if No ONE know what beats what. The look on the dealer's face is PRICELESS as they try to sort through who has what. (This is understandable in a 4 way+ PLO showdown but not here) To add to it, after 1-2 minutes he/she can safely disqualify the 27o that didn't have a hand or a draw. (Really? We weren't sure that wasn't the winner? LOL)

Nutcracker

Your described case is NOT "angle shooting".

You did NOTHING wrong, unfair or misleading.

By the way, your opponent did NOT "act out of turn" - he only flipped over his cards.

In poker, when a player flips over his cards, he is obliged to show them to ALL players who are still in the pot.

So, he flipped over his cards and you could see them.

On the other hand, he wrongly assumed that you checked, while you did nothing.

You could NOT DO anything - because he flipped over his cards immediately upon dealing the river !

So, you did not "use" the dealer.

I remember 2 videos on You Tube with cards flipped over.

In one, a guy with 6-6 made a mistake and the floor manager explained that he was not allaowed to bet or raise, but he could only call if his opponent bets. He flopped a 6... the whole table laughed...

In the other one, a guy with A-J flipped over his cards and had to play like that against a guy with 9-9...
It was so funny ! The guy with A-J hit a full house ! The guy with a 9 hit a weaker full house !
Then, the guy with 9-9 went all-in !!!!!!! And the guy with A-J misread his hand and folded !!!!!!!

Nutcracker69 said:

Honestly, though, in X number of years that has NEVER ONCE worked. Usually because the goddamn dealer feels like he is obligated to practically instantaneously correct me. "No, no flush" and then everyone figures out what I have. Other dude shows and TsID. THIS from some dealers who have to take the better part of 10 minutes to figure out a winner if there are 3 at showdown and 1 all in already. Or even worse, if you have 5 or more to showdown at the low limit table (I sht you not) the ENTIRE table flips over their hands, as if No ONE know what beats what. The look on the dealer's face is PRICELESS as they try to sort through who has what. (This is understandable in a 4 way+ PLO showdown but not here) To add to it, after 1-2 minutes he/she can safely disqualify the 27o that didn't have a hand or a draw. (Really? We weren't sure that wasn't the winner? LOL)

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When I train dealers (I am a floor at 2 poker rooms) one of the first things I say is practice reading hands by just watching the game. This takes more skill as the game grows in number of cards (plo, lowball, 7 card, etc.). One way to help this along, is that a dealer is required to read the hand out loud no matter what the player says it is (by rule, from left to right), so he/she best correct it asap as soon as they are tabled.

Newer dealers (especially those who have never played the game) have a big problem with this sometimes.

If you said "lets check it down" on an earlier street then it may be an angle, or if you motioned check as the river was being flipped, but for no reason should you EVER consider your bet there to be an angle just because his cards are exposed, that is totally his fault, and he is lucky he didnt get a penalty as well as expose himself to grave danger

milencenov said:

In one, a guy with 6-6 made a mistake and the floor manager explained that he was not allaowed to bet or raise, but he could only call if his opponent bets. He flopped a 6... the whole table laughed...

In the other one, a guy with A-J flipped over his cards and had to play like that against a guy with 9-9...
It was so funny ! The guy with A-J hit a full house ! The guy with a 9 hit a weaker full house !
Then, the guy with 9-9 went all-in !!!!!!! And the guy with A-J misread his hand and folded !!!!!!!

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This is the passive hand rule, which typically only applies in tournaments, or in live where there are more than two players in action, heads up live cash however most rooms do not enforce passive hand rule.

And if this dealer got mad at you for that he better grow some stones quick, because as far as controversial hands go this is one of the lowest on the ladder.

detroitjunkie said:

One way to help this along, is that a dealer is required to read the hand out loud no matter what the player says it is (by rule, from left to right), so he/she best correct it asap as soon as they are tabled.

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In my play, I always demand my opponent to show his cards when he is first to showdown. No matter what he says.
And I always say "Don't touch the chips", if someone more bold would say "Flush" and try to move the chips to himself.

And also, I love those primitive angle shooters who think that yesterday I graduated kindergarden and today I am playing poker... (well, I played my first 5-card draw hand when I was a 10 year old 4-grader at school... but this was long ago...)
Especially, those with AA/KK pre-flop who want to look weak and try dirty tricks...

Once, I raised from EP to 2,5 BB with 10-10, and a guy with A-A deliberately said "I raise", but 2 seconds later he only put chips for a call. Then some "vigilant" players who were not even in the pot, protested and the dealer required that if a raise is announced verbally, then at least a minimal raise should be put in the middle... The floor manager confirms, and the Villain "reluctantly" puts more chips in the middle...

I calculated my odds to catch a set, then I compared the required chips to call versus the effective stack.
Since his "minimal raise" meant that I had to make a "minimal call", I estimated that this was well worth the try.
Flop 10-8-2. I checked, he made C-Bet of pot size. I raised 1,5 times to simulate "top pair good kicker". He bought it ! He went all-in with his A-A, and I called with my top set...
He then tried to protest that I "angle shooted" by getting information from his "innocent mistake" and that I "dishonestly exploited that information"...
Everybody laughed...

Check out this angle shoot from EPT Madrid in 2011 - The angle shooter Ivan Freitez is last to act and has the nuts on the river. After his opponent bets, Ivan says "I raise" but only put out enough chips for a call. He then says "Sorry, I call". (Says he doesn't speak english?) (He knows by the rules he will have to make a raise, and wants his opponent to make the call) Director comes over and tells the opponent that he did this earlier in the tournament and he had a very strong hand. The player still made the call.

tocloc238 said:

Check out this angle shoot from EPT Madrid in 2011 - The angle shooter Ivan Freitez is last to act and has the nuts on the river. After his opponent bets, Ivan says "I raise" but only put out enough chips for a call. He then says "Sorry, I call". (Says he doesn't speak english?) (He knows by the rules he will have to make a raise, and wants his opponent to make the call) Director comes over and tells the opponent that he did this earlier in the tournament and he had a very strong hand. The player still made the call.


EPT Grand Final Madrid 2011 - Ivan Freitez Angle Shooting... Dirty - YouTube

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if the floor did indeed say this he should be fired immediately and never hired by anyone again....very sad

detroitjunkie said:

if the floor did indeed say this he should be fired immediately and never hired by anyone again....very sad

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for which reason?

Nutcracker69 said:

for which reason?

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telling the opponent that player did this earlier in the tournament and had a good hand

THIS IS WAAAAAAAAAAAY BAD! Breaks a lot of rules

tocloc238 said:

Check out this angle shoot from EPT Madrid in 2011 - The angle shooter Ivan Freitez is last to act and has the nuts on the river. After his opponent bets, Ivan says "I raise" but only put out enough chips for a call. He then says "Sorry, I call". (Says he doesn't speak english?) (He knows by the rules he will have to make a raise, and wants his opponent to make the call) Director comes over and tells the opponent that he did this earlier in the tournament and he had a very strong hand. The player still made the call.


EPT Grand Final Madrid 2011 - Ivan Freitez Angle Shooting... Dirty - YouTube

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The director must be relieved of duties for breaking the rules.

However, Ivan Freitez must be penalized for at least one orbit.

If he did the same thing in the same tournament, then he knows what "Raise" means and the excuse "I don't speak English" no longer holds.

As regards the caller, I am surprised what a fish he is - he gets superb information about his opponent, and yet ignores it...