At What Stakes Do Sng's Get Harder?

Im currently sng's with a 0.10 buy in and doing real well.

At what stakes can I expect the competition to get stiffer?

0.50? 1.00? 3.00?

What SNGs are you playing? (27s, 45s, STTs?) I'm assuming this is PokerStars you're talking about too. There are donks at all levels but there are less of them as you go higher. I'm not sure what the 10c ones are like but up to the $3.50s play is fairly horrible. Even the $7s and $15s you'll see ridiculous play but not as often. Haven't played any higher than that.

$6 level and upwards.

The jump from 6's to 16's is huge though, then the next jump after that is playing 30-100 buyins, which is played by mostly pros.

I agree with bluff, I too have played SNG's up to $15 and the play is just as bad at those stakes as it is at $1.
At every stake I have played, in the 9-10 man SNG's there seem to be 1 or 2 complete donkeys who go allin the first time they get Ace rag, a couple of semi fish, 2 or 3 decent players and 2 or 3 tight agressive regulars.
But be warned, at whatever level SNG's you play, however good you are you will go on long losing runs, I am a decent SNG player but often go 10-14 on the run without cashing once. Although some say you can survive with a 20 buy ins bank I always try to have 40-50 buy ins to avoid any chance of going broke.
Good luck

Colbefc said:

I am a decent SNG player but often go 10-14 on the run without cashing once.
Good luck

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No way??? I consider myself average (make small profit) and ive never gone 10-14 games without cashing....thats a lot...are you serious?

stg1969 said:

No way??? I consider myself average (make small profit) and ive never gone 10-14 games without cashing....thats a lot...are you serious?

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Lol at the both of you. 10-14 without cashing is minor in the annuls of variance.

If you are doing ok in the dime games, you might actually find it easier at the dollar to $5 games. Much of the insanity of cheap games gets smaller, and the play gets saner. Think of it sorta like the insaniacs figured something out, and are moving up. Usually, that 'something' is that saner play pays off.

Insane play at the micro micro's is largely defined as unreasonable raises with junk cards believing the big bet will do more than wise situational choices. For you to say you are doing well at the dime games, you must have discovered that much. You avoid all speculative hands early, and allow those insaniacs to kill themselves. At high buy-in games, you will still run into the insaniacs, but they will be fewer, and the real game will start sooner in terms of orbits than at the lower stakes.

The largest difference as you move up stakes is how you play in regard to the increased investment....aka scared money. After some success, your reaction to the increased stress lessens, and stabilizes till you move up another level. Rinse and repeat.

I would say your main problem is volume as you rise through the SNG stakes. As I remember when I grinded the $5 27 mans on stars, the player pool liquidity dropped like a cliff past $10. You either have to play turbo (your skill edge will shrink due to the structure, but even more since the sharks swim here trying to boost hourly rate) or start playing 180 mans, cash, or MTTs.

I played about 1500 $5 27 mans on stars pre black friday one summer with a 20% ROI. So $5 is definitely beatable. I considered myself a disciplined newbie at the time.

For some reason I find the play at the $0.60 level to be far tougher than the play at the $1.10 and $2.20 levels. Any reason why this might be?

Yes. I think there is a very simple reason for this. For many first time depositors, anything below $1 may seem like a waste of time. I noticed a similar phenomenon with $5 and $10 games. The $10 were harder, but there were still total fish there, just people that had a higher taste for action. $0.60 games are probably filled with micro grinders who have proven their skills at even lower levels. I like to remember that there are always people who have enough money to buy in directly at any stake...the ratio of fish to grinders gets smaller and smaller, but the fish never disappear. Along the way up the stakes, you do have some oddities like what you've noticed and I think it's related to the psychological barrier of $1 for brand new depositors.

beanstalk said:

Yes. I think there is a very simple reason for this. For many first time depositors, anything below $1 may seem like a waste of time. I noticed a similar phenomenon with $5 and $10 games. The $10 were harder, but there were still total fish there, just people that had a higher taste for action. $0.60 games are probably filled with micro grinders who have proven their skills at even lower levels. I like to remember that there are always people who have enough money to buy in directly at any stake...the ratio of fish to grinders gets smaller and smaller, but the fish never disappear. Along the way up the stakes, you do have some oddities like what you've noticed and I think it's related to the psychological barrier of $1 for brand new depositors.

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So then why should I play at those stakes if micro-grinders are there dominating the fields, even if BRM is a priority? Wouldn't I be better off just playing the $1.10's applying my edge against the higher pool of fish?

What kind of poker player are you? Its almost impossible to bluff someone off a made hand in the micros thats why you valuebet the heck out of your opps. As you start moving up in stakes you will notice that the money starts to have more of an effect on how ppl play poker. Just like how people tighten up on the bubble all of the sudden in a sng, the money all of a sudden means something. Depending upon your playing style I almost think its easier to play mid stakes then at the micros. To be honest, I don't think its good for a player to be playing at the micros for very long. I made this mistake when I first started off playing. My advice would be to spend your time studying instead of playing. Like perfect practice makes perfect play. Well if your practicing bad techniques over & over again its not good. You should look for a good solid balance of study/play time tho. This was very hard for me when i first started out. All I wanted to do was play. When I decided to make a living doing it & take it seriously all I wanted to do was study. At 10c your not making any money anyways. My advice would be to go get a copy of sng wiz set up opp hand ranges and play the quiz for a week. Get really good at that quiz. Dont make any mistakes on the average setting and make a few in the expert setting. After that open up every tourney you play and analyze you chip and icm evs in the late game. Forget about playing the micros for now. Spend your time studying and learning how to beat those games and then move up to the mid stakes as fast as possible.

Anyways, I hope that helps. GL & run good.

the higher stakes sit-n-gos see less crazy maniac play, which is a good and bad thing i suppose. when i was on stars, i found the 9-man $30 and $50 sit-n-gos more profitable than the $5 and $10

lol

Okay, so the majority of my SNG experience has been at the 60$ 45 player SNGs on Stars. This was a couple of years back before I left the US to do some travelling. $60 SNGs offer a good mix of serious novices, intermediates of all types and some pros. Would see some regular Supernovas in there. The play is tricky, but if you have a good understanding of the odds and timed bluff strategies you can hang in there. Surprisingly, there are still very loose players at the 60SNG. I play in "bursts" (like 10 tourneys in 1 play period which lasts for a few days). I averaged a finish in-the-money about 40% of the time for every burst... and this was playing very tight right up until the bubble! So you can imagine the number of loose players there are.

After travelling and spending some money I decided to conserve some money and played the 27$ and 33$ SNGs. I found the 27 to be pretty loose. While travelling, I casually played a series of 7$ SNGs which were very loose indeed. I've realxed my style over the years to accommodate more starting hands, but turns out I have to be extremely tight in anything below the 33$ games to get to the final table. My best record still remains at the 60$ SNG level.

With all the information overload out there, it's easy to get lost. The best advise I could give is a basic one that Harrington and Sklansky state best, that is to adopt the style of play that is opposite to the table's style, over a space of a few rounds. With 7$ being so loose I can only imagine the wild play at the dime buy-ins.

I'm not sure 'Harder' is the right term to use.

If you have found leaks, and made adjustment at one level, then that is the criteria, not hardness. There are adjustment to be made at every level. Some obvious, most not so obvious, and all dependent on the players at the table. So you might find a table at the $25 BI level that is more whacko than many of the tables you bought in at the $5 levels.

If you have problems adjusting, that will make it seem harder, but that is an internal process, and does not go to the hardness of the game. One must be aware of opportunities, and reads, and the dynamics of the 'now' to even understand what adjustments need be made for the 'now'.

each level has a small increase

dj11 said:

Lol at the both of you. 10-14 without cashing is minor in the annuls of variance.

If you are doing ok in the dime games, you might actually find it easier at the dollar to $5 games. Much of the insanity of cheap games gets smaller, and the play gets saner. Think of it sorta like the insaniacs figured something out, and are moving up. Usually, that 'something' is that saner play pays off.

Insane play at the micro micro's is largely defined as unreasonable raises with junk cards believing the big bet will do more than wise situational choices. For you to say you are doing well at the dime games, you must have discovered that much. You avoid all speculative hands early, and allow those insaniacs to kill themselves. At high buy-in games, you will still run into the insaniacs, but they will be fewer, and the real game will start sooner in terms of orbits than at the lower stakes.

The largest difference as you move up stakes is how you play in regard to the increased investment....aka scared money. After some success, your reaction to the increased stress lessens, and stabilizes till you move up another level. Rinse and repeat.

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I dont play 10c SnG, i play $6 ones, and i honestly have never gone more than 10 games without cashing....we are talking 6 ring here.... dont get me wrong, im not saying its not possible, just saying most iver ever gone is maybe 7 or 8..

I definately agree with you on the scared money thing, its why i dont play cash ATM, as soon as a pot gets to like 15-20 bucks, i'm starting to lose faith in my hand for no reason.

stg1969 said:

I dont play 10c SnG, i play $6 ones, and i honestly have never gone more than 10 games without cashing....we are talking 6 ring here.... dont get me wrong, im not saying its not possible, just saying most iver ever gone is maybe 7 or 8.

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Consider yourself fortunate then. I've gone like 15HU games without cashing, not sure of 6-max number but pretty sure it will be fairly similar, if not worse.

WiZZiM gave the correct answer in the second post, FWIW.