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Message: [QUOTE="TPC, post: 1313661, member: 46273"] I don't know, a four bet shove usually screams AA or KK. On 2nl you never know though. Called you a donk cause they were upset about their AA getting cracked. It's poker, who cares, I wouldn't. It's only 2nl. Now are you a donk? To answer that question depends on what your thought process was. Did you say to yourself OMG AK suited call? Or did you pause and think about the situation? Did you think about the pf raise she made? What could she be raising UTG+1? You three bet her and then she shoves, what would she shove with, what kind of range? Did she snap shove? did she pause before she shoved? Also you had a guy in the BB that also flatted your three bet, did you think about him, what he was going to do? In this situation the BB doesn't really matter because his stack is so small, however if he had a full stack you would need to think about that too. Now lets think about what you said about the two players. First question I have, did she ever four bet shove pre flop before? You also said the KJ guy was calling everything. So we have to assume we are looking at a three way AIPF pot. I ran it on Poker stove to show you how that move probably wasn't the best move. We have to give the [COLOR=magenta]girl that shoved credit for some what of a hand[/COLOR]. I just used 99+, AJs+, AKo and I used just a [COLOR=darkorange]random hand for the KJ guy that was, well random.[/COLOR] ............equity..... win ..........tie.. pots won....... pots tied [COLOR=darkorange]Hand 0: 20.761% 20.38% 00.38% 14179170708 266473258.50 { random }[/COLOR] [COLOR=red]Hand 1: 37.637% 31.87% 05.77% 22171885080 4015631041.50 { AdKd }[/COLOR] [COLOR=magenta]Hand 2: 41.602% 35.92% 05.68% 24993638733 3952674219.00 { 99+, AJs+, AKo }[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]We make money in poker by making our oponants make mistakes, which is how we come out ahead over time. We want to shove or call a shove when we are ahead and have the best chance to win. We don't want to call when we are behind. Now, if you were last to act and were ok with what is probably at best a coin flip then that's ok. But it's a losing play over time. You can see by the stats above you are behind and only have a 32% chance to win. Which means you lose there about 62% of the time. So I don't think you realize the situation you were actually in.[/COLOR] Now if we plug in the actual hands that were played you can see how far behind you were. .............equity...... win...... tie ..pots won ..pots tied [COLOR=darkorange]Hand 0: 09.984% 09.74% 00.25% 133493 3360.33 { KcJh }[/COLOR] [COLOR=red]Hand 1: 10.783% 10.16% 00.62% 139331 8476.33 { AdKd }[/COLOR] [COLOR=magenta]Hand 2: 79.233% 78.75% 00.48% 1079486 6607.33 { AcAs }[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]You were dominated, it wasn't a coin flip, you lucked out. Now normally when you Have AK, you are not running into AA or KK that often, cause you are in fact holding an A and a K yourself. So again, it depends on the four bet shove, has she done that before, if so what was she holding before, do you have an idea of her range? Lets look at [COLOR=red]AKs[/COLOR] vs [/COLOR][COLOR=blue]QQ.[/COLOR] ...........equity..... win....... tie ....pots won.. pots tied [COLOR=red]Hand 0: 46.049% 45.83% 00.22% 18834720 89058.00 { AKs }[/COLOR] [COLOR=blue]Hand 1: 53.951% 53.73% 00.22% 22082460 89058.00 { QQ }[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]Even though it's a coin flip, in the long run you are still going to lose this more than you win. Let add another hand in there and see how the AK stacks up, I'll use the [COLOR=darkorange]KJ[/COLOR] again.[/COLOR] ............equity .......win....... tie... pots won ....pots tied [COLOR=red]Hand 0: 37.838% 37.47% 00.37% 110936988 1093548.00 { AKs }[/COLOR] [COLOR=blue]Hand 1: 53.192% 53.06% 00.13% 157113180 378372.00 { QQ }[/COLOR] [COLOR=darkorange]Hand 2: 08.971% 08.60% 00.37% 25467228 1093548.00 { KJo }[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]One more time with a middle pair.[/COLOR] ...............equity..... win...... tie.. pots won... pots tied [COLOR=red]Hand 0: 37.021% 36.58% 00.44% 108309276 1304418.00 { AKs }[/COLOR] [COLOR=blue]Hand 1: 42.187% 42.08% 00.11% 124598376 310944.00 { 77 }[/COLOR] [COLOR=darkorange]Hand 2: 20.791% 20.35% 00.44% 60255432 1304418.00 { KJo }[/COLOR] And a final one with the third hand also having an A. ...............equity.... win...... tie.... pots won... pots tied [COLOR=red]Hand 0: 36.800% 35.89% 00.91% 106258644 2698578.00 { AKs }[/COLOR] [COLOR=blue]Hand 1: 43.504% 43.41% 00.10% 128515248 293832.00 { 77 }[/COLOR] [COLOR=darkorange]Hand 2: 19.696% 18.78% 00.91% 55617984 2698578.00 { AJo }[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]You are still behind a middle pair here with AK, and when you add that third hand in there with one of your outs you drop even farther behind.[/COLOR] I haven't even talked about odds up yet. However I wanted to show you where your hand stood. You three bet to .30, she four bet shoved you making the pot $3.55 at that point. So now you have to call for $2.45 more to win $3.55, which is giving you 1.44 to 1 odds. We still have random guy to act as well. He's so short, and has been calling everything we can assume he will cal her just to see what that will do to our odds. Assuming he calls with his .79 you are now getting 1.76 to 1. Don't get in the habit of assuming someone will call the shove as well, but I think in this example it's ok, cause he was so short. So now we look at our original data. ............equity..... win ..........tie.. pots won....... pots tied [COLOR=darkorange]Hand 0: 20.761% 20.38% 00.38% 14179170708 266473258.50 { random }[/COLOR] [COLOR=red]Hand 1: 37.637% 31.87% 05.77% 22171885080 4015631041.50 { AdKd }[/COLOR] [COLOR=magenta]Hand 2: 41.602% 35.92% 05.68% 24993638733 3952674219.00 { 99+, AJs+, AKo }[/COLOR] We have 38% equity and we win 32% of the time, so we need at least 3 to 1 odds just to break even. So what the pot odds are telling us is we need to fold here. The random KJ guy complicates things a little, lets take him out. We will use the original odds of [COLOR=blue]1.44[/COLOR] to [COLOR=red]1[/COLOR]. ..............equity...... win ......tie.... pots won.... pots tied [COLOR=red]Hand 0: 47.617% 38.25% 09.36% 117904104 28858680.00 { AKs }[/COLOR] [COLOR=blue]Hand 1: 52.383% 43.02% 09.36% 132593256 28858680.00 { 99+, AJs+, AKo }[/COLOR] As I said before we need to give the four bet shove credit for something, I used the original 99+, AJs+, AKo. Here we have 48% equity and we win 38% of the time, so we need to be getting at least 2 to 1 to make this profitable over the long run. In this case you are only getting 1.44 to 1. Again, pot odds say to fold here. [/QUOTE]

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