How much to raise preflop?

pat3392 · Mar 10, 2010

I've been thinking that I raise by too small amounts. I'm considering to make a rule when I raise:

Raise 3 big blinds plus 1 blind for every limper. This could also be applied to reraising I suppose. If the raise/reraise is more than 50% of my pot, push all in.

What do you guys think? it is going to create much bigger pots, and help my tight aggressive style. I find that I'm not making enough chips fast enough so this may help. There is a catch to it though, when I try to do continuation bets I have to put a lot more money into the pot, it is a risky style.

NOLA Red · Mar 10, 2010

Personally, I think you should vary the size of your raises from between 2x to 4x the bb or more depending on your position at the table and tournament stage if playing one.

Standard 3x + 1 for each limper raises will do the same to disguise your hand as varying your bets will, but what it won't do is get you those extra chippies you're looking for. If you vary your raise sizes independent of your hand strength and, perhaps, more dependent on your table position then when you do get called you've built a nicer pot for yourself.

Sizing bets to maximize your wins is an important tool to have in your poker arsenal.

bubonicplay · Mar 10, 2010

Raise size all depends on opponents and what the purpose of that bet or raise is. What is the purpose of the raise? Think about what different sizings accomplish. Choose the one that accomplishes the goal you want.

Leo 50 · Mar 10, 2010

As someone else said, your raises should vary depending on your position. Also your strength and stack size should come into play as well.
Stack Size being the least important (unless you are short stacked and need to push)

A 3 or 4 x times the BB usually will be enough to eliminate most of the limpers
who just want to see a flop making it easier for you to go heads up against one opponent.

Varying the size will make your range harder to guess.

Also when you are betting, take your time.
So many online players pre-click their folds, or their checks etc.
It really makes their bets stand out when they have to enter an amount,
it shows me that they have a decent starting hand.
And then I act accordingly.

pat3392 · Mar 10, 2010

ok then, vary the raises sounds like a good thing, but how much should I vary it by? I want to make a rule for me to use. I think the amount I raise by should also be dependent of how many chips on average do the players have. If everyone has 100 blinds, I should be raising differently if they have 15 on average.

To the person who wrote I should raise dependent on the situation: I do understand what you mean; however, by doing that I think I will giving away tells, since I play with a lot of regulars. I think I could do that occasionally to mess with their heads, but not often.

Henreiman · Mar 10, 2010

Generally that's right. I like to raise 3-4x early on when blinds are really small, then 3x when they are medium, and finally 2.5x when they are huge. Just a general rule. Don't be afraid to mix it up though with different cards and from different positions. Make sure you don't give anything away though, like you raise 4x with big hands and 3x with medium...or 2x with big hands from EP...or anything like that really.

swingro · Mar 11, 2010

Always raise the same number of blinds when in a certain position if u are not an expert. It is the simplyest way to always hide what u have cose nobody knows if u raise with AA or 72. Sometimes i use another strategy. I simply raise the pot. It is a big move but also it is easyest to bluff after the flop if somebody calls. Always raising the pot preflop is an agressive way of playing but also u have to worry not to be caught when playing marginal hands.
In tourneys i use 2.5 early position and 4.5 from the button or i limp sometimes with pocket pair or suited connector when the table is full of weak players to speculate the hand . At microstakes ring game i use te second strategy cose u cannot intimidate anyone with a raise of 4 cents or 6 cents and the tables are full of limpers. So when i raise the pot i show streght. I wouldn't do that at 25c-50c.

Pascal-lf · Mar 11, 2010

I follow Phil Gordon's advice which is to vary by position in an average situtation - around 2.5x in early position, 3x in mid, 3.5x in late, and 3x on the small blind.

Obviously these are just guidelines; if it's an especially tight table then I'll drop it by a small amount, and the opposite for loose. In the later stages of the tournament if blinds are especially high then that changes things too.

Regardless of the situation, I always do my best to play every hand exactly the same, regardless of it being AA or AT

bigjoker66 · Mar 11, 2010

A lot depends on stack sizes. Ar you deep or short-stacked, What about your opponents?

That an stack to pot ratios.

Also are you talking ring game or tournaments? That makes a difference also.

bobboss171 · Mar 11, 2010

increase from 3 to 4 times the big blind can have good results in pre flop,
but it is emphasized that depends on its position on the table, how many players have paid, and also, what would be the value of buy-in tournament.

Roberto4063 · Mar 11, 2010

Nice advice guys. I usually raise the same amount each time, be it, KK, or 65 suited. It masks my strength so no one puts me on a specific hand. I mix it up occasionally.

thepokerkid123 · Mar 12, 2010

casino said:
Deciding How Much to Raise Pre-Flop Based on Position
Your decision about raising pre-flop should often depend on where you are in the hand. However, there are two different schools of thought about this. One school is that the earlier in the hand you are, the more you should raise. The reasoning here is that you don't mind ending the hand pre-flop because you will be out of position the rest of the hand. The other school of thought is that you should raise more the later you are to act. The reasoning on this one is that with fewer people to act behind you, you have a better chance of winning the blinds uncontested so a stronger bet will discourage opponents who may think you are just trying to steal and want to play back at you. The other consideration is that you are more likely to be re-raised from an early position, so if you don't have a very strong hand, you may be in a very tough situation if you have already committed many chips with an early position raise.

Raising more in EP is for cash games. Raising less in EP is for tournaments.

Roberto4063 · Mar 12, 2010

thepokerkid123 said:
Raising more in EP is for cash games. Raising less in EP is for tournaments.

Really? how so? This is new to me

CardDeath101 · Mar 12, 2010

I like to raise 3x with anything small pockets however if some people limp and i have a big pocket pair i will raise maybe 5-6x depending on how many, remember always limit your competition

bubonicplay · Mar 12, 2010

Actually it's pretty standard to raise more in EP in tourneys or cash games. Your range is stronger generally and you'll be oop so you want to lower the SPR.

thepokerkid123 · Mar 12, 2010

Roberto4063 said:
Really? how so? This is new to me

Cash=lots of post-flop action (playing multiple OOP increases the disadvantage) and building a big pot pre-flop allows you to cut the hand short getting stacks in on the flop or turn. Getting stacks in early also favours one pair type hands which is basically all of your EP range.
Your range is also stronger and bigger preflop raise sizes dramatically increase the pot size post-flop, this is the main reason for raising more in EP, it allows you to play bigger pots with bigger hands.

Tournaments, I'm sure someone else can cover this better than I can but the basics of it are that you're relying on fold equity a lot more and since your range is stronger in EP you can get away with a smaller raise (which means it doesn't need to work as often) and you still get a lot of fold equity. Note that this doesn't work in cash because implied odds are so good for the guy in position if you raise small this is partly because stacks are deeper and partly because the other guy can rebuy where in a tournament he'd risk often crippling his stack doing goofy stuff with SCers and similar here.
As for raising more on the button, to be honest I don't get that one, but it's Chris Ferguson who seems to most strongly advocate this method so there's probably some game theory rationalisation for it. I'll do some reading up on it when I'm not multitasking as much as I am at the moment but hopefully someone will save me the trouble and just tell us the answer.

Roberto4063 · Mar 13, 2010

thepokerkid123 said:
Cash=lots of post-flop action (playing multiple OOP increases the disadvantage) and building a big pot pre-flop allows you to cut the hand short getting stacks in on the flop or turn. Getting stacks in early also favours one pair type hands which is basically all of your EP range.
Your range is also stronger and bigger preflop raise sizes dramatically increase the pot size post-flop, this is the main reason for raising more in EP, it allows you to play bigger pots with bigger hands.

Tournaments, I'm sure someone else can cover this better than I can but the basics of it are that you're relying on fold equity a lot more and since your range is stronger in EP you can get away with a smaller raise (which means it doesn't need to work as often) and you still get a lot of fold equity. Note that this doesn't work in cash because implied odds are so good for the guy in position if you raise small this is partly because stacks are deeper and partly because the other guy can rebuy where in a tournament he'd risk often crippling his stack doing goofy stuff with SCers and similar here.
As for raising more on the button, to be honest I don't get that one, but it's Chris Ferguson who seems to most strongly advocate this method so there's probably some game theory rationalisation for it. I'll do some reading up on it when I'm not multitasking as much as I am at the moment but hopefully someone will save me the trouble and just tell us the answer.

Thanks, and I'm sure some1 will tell us eventually lol.

:dito: <-- Isn't "Dito" with 2 "t's"? :icon_scra

NBA2K10ROCKETS · Mar 13, 2010

like many people already said it depends on what your purpose is to steal the pot/don't want action i think 6 times the big blind would be suffice and if you want action 3 or 4 blinds should do it.

thepokerkid123 · Mar 14, 2010

NBA2K10ROCKETS said:
like many people already said it depends on what your purpose is to steal the pot/don't want action i think 6 times the big blind would be suffice and if you want action 3 or 4 blinds should do it.

What would you do if you were sitting at a table with someone who always bet 6bb with the bottom of his range and 3-4bb with the top of his range?

How often do your steals have to be succesful when raising 6bb compared to 4bb to show a proffit? Do you think you gain enough fold equity by betting the extra 2bb to make up for that? Do you want to play bigger pots when you're bluffing or when you've got the best hand?

I suggest you figure out the answers to all of those questions and adjust your bet sizing accordingly.

How much to raise preflop?

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