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Message: [QUOTE="audacity, post: 4445181, member: 126217"] I have only been playing online poker for 4 years. I realize the cards used come from a gaming context where Jacks, Queens, etc had 'special' value in certain games. But with poker, I so often find myself doing some quick statistics - and I'll think, ok 13 cards total (It's amazing how often I have to count 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 - wait, where was I - oh yeah 9 10 J Q K A)- to recompute 13 because I forget... But my point is - the face cards ? TECHNICALLY are nothing special, they are just the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th most valuable cards. My BIG point here is - there is nothing special about ten thirteenths vs say nine thirteenths... Now me? I take 13 and divide by 2 and round up to 8. So in MY mind - since I never could understand the 100+ youtube videos and articles I've read on 'what you MUST do - how you MUST think' I just figured - gee, I'm a senior software engineer who started University at age 12, I SHOULD be able to grasp the basic probability and statistics needed to play this game - including statistics on players behaviors so as to play them too :) So me? I DO think 8 in a game with 13 ordinal positions IS meaningful because that's the FIRST one on the UPSIDE - of half way, and that's ONLY because higher ordinal position wins. I say ordinal because it makes me look smart, no really, relational databases - my professor would stress 'ordinality and cardinality' But I would get confused until - and I'll share this to the benefit of all reading this because it's critical in understanding set theory and the 13 poker cards, sure sure a super set of 4 sets of 13 on tops of that... but... For those that like I - were once confused on the value of the concept of ordinal vs cardinal... In any 'set' - cardinality is what guarnatees UNIQUE symbols - and ordinality is the arbitrary order of those symbols. So take the alphabet - the cardinality is the set of A through Z, and the ordinality short of maybe how the Greeks actually had a purpose for Alpha to come first before Omega? In our culture - the ordinality really doesn't matter. But in a set of 13 numbers ? 1 to 13 ? In poker? Ordnality means much more, because of course a member of the set (the deck) that has a higher ordinal value will 'win' against one of a lower. So when I think about face cards? Maybe I'm alone on this, but there really is nothing special about J Q K A short of they are near the upper end. I mean, 10 is next in line, 9 is to.. So - where I consider 8 the BASE to start caring? that means I have 13-5 = cards I want to be interested in. Just Tim math here- but me? I value 8 through A, as they are ALL above the half way point. I really am trying to make a point here and that is - I don't think it's proper to think J is anything TRULY more special to 10 than 10 is to 9... BUT... J Q K A - the face cards drop the # - so I think people somehow think they are 'magical' or 'SUPER KILLER CARDS'... To that - I'm just saying I think most people - me no longer ever since I started thinking about this - think that 10 10 as to 9 9 is NOT the same as JJ as to 10 10... Because they think Jacks are 'special' simply because of the face card - symbol- the CHANGE in how it's illustrated... Maybe poker could start to be played with simply cards with numbers. I mean, it SHOULD be the SAME game, but for most? they'd say it wouldn't be the same game, but it IS the same... Alas my point, face cards I think mislead people... Oh they are HIGHER in ordinal position in the set- sure... But 10 is higher than 9 too, and by THAT reasoning, 10 10 I'm just saying, in most peoples minds isn't valued QUITE the same as people value face cards. I really hope I contributed to someones thinking here... [/QUOTE]

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