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Message: [QUOTE="OzExorcist, post: 1312401, member: 23910"] [B]Cliff notes: [/B]focus on the situation rather than getting hung up on the specific cards, think of it as a squeeze and a re-steal shove ([B]not[/B] a three-bet with K4 and a four-bet shove with 76) and remember that not everyone wants to limp meekly into the money. I should really stop reading this thread... There's an awful lot of the word "right" being bandied about here which is... interesting, for want of a better word. You're focussing pretty much [B]all[/B] of your attention on the cards these players were holding, not their reads and the table dynamics which are much MUCH more important in this situation. When you consider the whole picture, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with the way either of these two played the hand. It's a pretty standard squeeze play when Veldhuis three-bets and the cards he's holding are largely irrelevant. Sure, he [I]could[/I] have just mucked the hand but he's got plenty of chips, he's in a zone where he's running over the table, there are image benefits in it for him and Elezra has given him a perfect opportunity by just calling. Muenz has got to recognise that Veldhuis can be raising with anything in this spot and that the other two players in the hand won't be taking any further part unless they're holding legitimate monsters. So there's a big pot with dead money out there for the taking. Four-bet shoving with a stack that size almost certainly folds the first two players and since Veldhuis doesn't have to have a good hand either, chances are he picks up the pot. Shoving here is a pretty standard way of putting a bully back in his box. Of course, it's complicated by the fact that he's maybe got a tilty image at the moment. I say maybe because thanks to TV editing we don't actually know how long it's been since Veldhuis beat him in those other big pots - it's possible significant amounts of time have passed and Muenz has rebuilt a tighter image. But regardless, it's a big bet and I think it was fair to assume that he was forcing Veldhuis to have [I]some[/I] sort of reasonable hand in order to call - Muenz wasn't the only one at the table who was surprised when Veldhuis called that light. Veldhuis making the call we've discussed above - at that point the cards he's holding [I]do[/I] start to matter because he's got to assess them against Muenz's range. But note that until that point, all the plays are perfectly justifiable and it really doesn't matter what the players are holding. One last thought: some players are perfectly happy to take risks like this early in order to either chip up big or get out and get back to their cash games and with that in mind I really don't think there's anything wrong with the way either Veldhuis or Muenz played this hand. They could have played super-snug and just folded these hands but they're not "wrong" just because they did something different to that. [/QUOTE]

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