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Message: [QUOTE="OzExorcist, post: 2299804, member: 23910"] Nope :) The situation you've just described is completely different for two reasons. One is that it's happening [b]before[/b] showdown, and the other is that your statement is actually ambiguous. You're talking about something that hasn't happened yet. You might raise, you might call, you might fold. You [i]intend[/i] to fold if he bets, but it's possible you could change your mind too*. Nobody's talking about the strength of their hand. It's all legit IMO, no different to making a bluff with your chips. Grossberger's situation is different because it's at showdown, where you're absolutely not allowed to misrepresent the strength of your hand (per the rules cited above), and the statement he made is very different in nature. On the face of it yes, saying "maybe I can beat two pair" sounds pretty ambiguous and non-committal. It might even be that it wasn't said with the intent to make the other player muck a better hand. But the hand has gone to showdown, the time for ambiguity and bluffing is past. And if you think about it for a second, saying "maybe I can beat two pair" is actually a very [b]specific[/b] representation of the strength of his hand. Anything one pair or lower definitely can't beat two pair. Anything three of a kind or higher definitely can beat two pair**. So the only time it's accurate to say that he could "maybe" beat two pair is if he had two pair as well. Effectively, Grossberger has stated that he has two pair, and the only question was whose pairs were highest. He's told us he only had top pair, ergo he misrepresented his hand at showdown. And it was only this muck rule that allowed him to get away with it. If he had've had to show his cards after villain mucked, and villain maintained that he [i]did[/i] have two pair, then I believe every effort would (and should) have been made to retrieve villain's hand from the muck. [SIZE="1"]* for the sake of the argument, let's assume the dealer didn't hold the other player to his verbal declaration that he was going to bet[/SIZE] [SIZE="1"]** I'd be inclined to give a little more leeway if he said 'maybe' and he [i]could[/i] beat two pair, because at least then based on the verbal statements there's no question that he's trying to get the other player to fold a better hand[/SIZE] [/QUOTE]

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