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Message: [QUOTE="Jacki Burkhart, post: 3134217, member: 105969"] I know I've started a thread like this before, but it's been a couple years and the topic has come up again not just here on the forums, but on twitter and in real life etc. There have been those who have suggested another poker "Boom" like the chris moneymaker effect simply cannot happen until more women start to become interested in poker. To me, that makes a lot of sense but I don't know how to make that happen. I am basically starting this thread to move a current conversation out of a hand analysis thread that we were derailing. If you want to read the beginning part of the conversation, you can find that thread here: [url]https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/888-nlhe-mtt-turbo-wsop-crazy-296903/#post3131889[/url] But basically I am responding to Nutcracker69, and anyone else who is interested. I think the low numbers of women in poker is multi-faceted. And I think very little of it has to do with biology (though probably more than 0%) and mostly has to do with culture, soceital norms, expectations, traditional gender roles, opportunities etc. [B]INCOME DISPARITY/ OPPORTUNITY COST[/B] First, you posit that although women reportedly earn 30% less than men, poker is a venture where the playing field is leveled and women can use it as a "proving grounds" that they can perform at levels equal to or better than men. That is one way of looking at it. But isn't another way of looking at it to say that since women earn 30% less than men, the buy in is effectively 30% HIGHER for women? I know that the cost is exactly the same in real dollars. But when you look at it in terms of percentage of expendible income....the buy in is more significant to the group who earns less. For example, if you were to compile a list of the 10 richest and 10 poorest countries and compare those lists to WSOP entrants from all countries....I'll bet you'd find that "rich" countries are represented at much higher rates than "poor" countries. It is not to suggest that people in those poor countries are any less smart or capable of doing well at poker....simply that the relative expense of entering those events is higher for people who earn less money. But, even if the income disparity is a real reason it would only account for up to 30% fewer females than average...and we KNOW the actual numbers of females is much smaller (between 5-15% on average). So there is clearly something else going on here. [B] CULTURE, GENDER and COMPETITION[/B] I think a bigger factor is cultural expectations and gender roles. Society does not generally promote a positive and optimistic view of competitive women....though it is slowly changing it wasn't that long ago that even high school sports offered nothing to girls aside from cheerleading. My aunt tried to start the first female basketball team in her high school in 1972 but they had less than the minimum 5 girls needed to play. It took until 1974 before she found 4 other girls willing to play (her junior year) and they played all 4 quarters with no subs and travelled long distances to find other female basketball teams to play against and there was virtually no funding from the school district. And this was a highschool with hundreds of students. So yes, that is all changing but not overnight. Now, 40 years later we do have equal numbers of female sports as male sports offered in schools and colleges (only due to Title IX legislation) but after college there is almost zero opportunity for female professional athletes. So even females who are encouraged to pursue competitive sports and excel at them have a deep understanding that it will always just be a "hobby" and not a career. This may seem trivial....but actually it frames the way those women will view sports and competition for their whole lives. [B]GENDER NORMS AND FEMININITY[/B] OK, aside from money and aside from competition there is the entire idea of femininity. Many women are concerned with seeming attractive to potential partners and husbands and therefore pursue more traditionally "feminine" things. [B]DOUBLE STANDARD in PARENTING and MOTHER'S GUILT[/B] And then there is motherhood. We know that women are mothers at roughly the same rate as men are fathers, but the roles are treated very differently by society and even by ourselves. It is a well known phenomenon amongst women that mom's feel guilty for taking any "me" time, and dad's rarely feel the same way. And these can be very good dads too. If a man works 40 hours a week and only has saturday and sunday to spend with his family, he thinks nothing about spending half of saturday golfing with his buddies and spending Sunday afternoon watching sports and hiding in his "man cave". I know that's how it was in my family growing up. Meanwhile, the mom in the same family might take a ladies night or a spa day every few weeks, but she will feel at least some level of guilt for "abandoning" her children (even if she is the primary caregiver). This "mother" complex extends beyond just mothers too. I know that I do feel some level of guilt when I go and play, but I get past it and juggle my priorities as best I can. But I am honestly shocked how often I am questioned at the table about "who is watching" my children or "what does your husband think about you being at the casino while he's watching the kids?" Now, usually these men aren't trying to imply I'm a bad mom, they are just making small talk and are genuinely curious about how a poker playing mom makes it work. But I have never heard any type of similar questions asked of the male poker players who are fathers (which is most of them). Presumably, most of the players in the poker room have "abandoned their children" but only the female poker players are questioned about it and made to feel like it is a deviant or questionable use of their time. [B]MARKETING WORKS IN EVERY OTHER BUSINESS, AND IT WORKS IN POKER TOO[/B] Then there is poker marketing....it is almost exclusively marketed to men. Most of the time when a woman is shown in any kind of advertisement or promotion having to do with poker she is some scantily clad buxom beauty who is clinging to some man who is a poker "winner". Example: The royal flush girls. When women poker players ARE featured in an article or magazine it is frequently in some kind of sexy pose or in a sexy outfit where her male counterparts would be photographed smiling with a pile of chips or trophy in front of them. WHO is that marketed towards? Do you think female poker players are extremely interested in the cleavage and midriff of other female poker players? [B]GAMBLING TENDENCIES[/B] You make a good argument that women "gamble" or frequent casinos in roughly the same numbers as men. I don't know if that is actually true....but in just looking around the casino it certainly "seems" true and yet women tend to gravitate towards the slot machines and men tend to gravitate more towards games of "skill". Why is this? I honestly don't know but if I had to guess, I'd say intimidation. Slot machines are not nearly as intimidating as sitting at a table full of strangers (men) who all seem to know what they are doing and you are just learning. Add to that fact that you stick out like a sore thumb so it's even tougher to "blend in" and seem like you know what you are doing....women just get WAAAAAAY more attention at the poker table. I also find it interesting that among casino patrons, their average annual income is significantly higher than the national average...so you would assume since men earn more than women, that men would frequent casinos more often...so I'd infer from that data that women may treat casinos as casual entertainment and men treat it more of a "thrill" and the more they are risking the more "thrilling" it becomes....I don't know about that last part...just kind of a guess. [B]MONEY MANAGEMENT:[/B] I find it interesting that even though women earn reportedly 25-30% less than their male counterparts, women tend to save MORE money in their 401-Ks than their male counterparts. And this is NOT adjusted for the income disparity. So they are overcoming the income gap and actually saving more than the men, so in essence they are saving 30+% more than their male counterparts. What does this suggest for gambling? I don't know really, but I find it interesting that women and men can approach their finances so differently. Maybe women feel more of a need for security than males do? Now, I'm not really complaining about these things. It obviously hasn't deterred me and I'm the kind of person who has always enjoyed being different, and the attention that accompanies being different. But if we're talking about women in general....it adds a lot of pressure to be SO CONSPICUOUS in a situation compared to your competition. My sister, for example is a pretty decent online poker player but has to spend weeks gathering her courage every time she wants to go play in a casino. And even though she usually wins or breaks even at the casino she doesn't enjoy it like she enjoys online...she feels anxious and exposed and vulnerable the whole time. ok....that's enough long winded rambling for now. I've got more but.... [/QUOTE]

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