Mucked cards

ukaliks · Nov 4, 2009

Do u think it's fair that the other players get to see the mucked cards at showdown?
I don't know all the rules of poker btw, so maybe someone can enlighten me please.
People who use the replay button get a advantage to a leak of someones game.

Thanks

aL

suit2please · Nov 4, 2009

And people who use software such as Hold Em Manager and Poker Tracker don't even need to go to the replayer, the software does it for them.

RoyalFish · Nov 4, 2009

Yes, it's fair. It wouldn't be fair if they can see them but you can't. You can. It would be just as fair if nobody could see them. As long as the rule applies equally to everyone, it's pretty much fair by definition.

The Dark Side · Nov 4, 2009

If Im not mistaken, even at a B&M casino. If you want to see cards that another player mucked after you call their bet, you can see them too. Not real sure on the rules reagrding that either.

But, as already stated, now that I DL PT3 I dont even need to use the replayer, Poker Tracker automatically shows me what the cards were.

Ice Wolf · Nov 4, 2009

RoyalFish said:
Yes, it's fair. It wouldn't be fair if they can see them but you can't. You can. It would be just as fair if nobody could see them. As long as the rule applies equally to everyone, it's pretty much fair by definition.

I think what Ukaliks is trying to say is more along the lines of people get a look at how you play online without having to pay for it or be in the hand and not about it being fair because everyone can see everyone elses cards. I do agree with Ukaliks here too. The tighter players especially are at a great disadvantage online.

TheWall · Nov 4, 2009

If I'm correct in casinos you are allowed to ask to see mucked cards?

jordanbillie · Nov 4, 2009

Yes, as long as the hand goes to a showdown, anyone who was dealt in at the beginning of the hand can ask to see the mucked cards. However, you can be denied if you seem to be abusing the rule.

It is a rule in place to prevent collusion or soft playing.

A side note about the live rule. If you are the winner of the hand and ask to see the mucked cards, those cards are live and can still win the hand if they are shown to be a winner. If a player that was not in until showdown but was dealt in asks to see the hand, the hand is dead and even if it is turned up and would be a winner, cannot win the hand.

ukaliks · Nov 4, 2009

Cheers, thanks for the information.

testreet · Nov 4, 2009

Yes well you should know as a poker player that you wish you could see what the opponent had per se....I think that the average poker player is very serious on whether he got bluffed or not because it has to do with his money...I am not sure if they care as much when you are playing with play chips and not dealing with real currency

Xavier · Nov 4, 2009

jordanbillie said:
A side note about the live rule. If you are the winner of the hand and ask to see the mucked cards, those cards are live and can still win the hand if they are shown to be a winner.

Are you 100% sure about that? It seems strange that a mucked hand can still win. So if that guy Ivey was against when he mucked the winning flush asked to see his cards he would have been sick.
Surely generally if you have any sense you should ask to see the cards if they're mucked on showdown 100% of the time, because it will give you knowledge on how the opponent plays.

StormRaven · Nov 4, 2009

Yes it's fair as long as everyone can see them. Online sites have set this up to help deter collusion.

Live - no you can not see a persons mucked cards, even if you ask. If you are in a hand and it goes to showdown it takes 2 cards shown to win the hand, but, if the other players folded their cards and conceded the pot then you don't have to show. If other players paid on the river then the winning hand has to show both cards. If the players were all in in a tournament then both or all the players have to show. If players are all in in a cash game and one player tosses their cards in, the other gets the pot and doesn't have to show.

jordanbillie · Nov 5, 2009

Xavier said:
Are you 100% sure about that? It seems strange that a mucked hand can still win. So if that guy Ivey was against when he mucked the winning flush asked to see his cards he would have been sick.
Surely generally if you have any sense you should ask to see the cards if they're mucked on showdown 100% of the time, because it will give you knowledge on how the opponent plays.

To clear up a misunderstanding, when I say "mucked" I mean the player folds there hand, but the cards haven't actually hit the muck yet. Once the cards are in the muck, obviously they cannot be retrieved to see what they were.

jordanbillie · Nov 5, 2009

StormRaven said:
Live - no you can not see a persons mucked cards, even if you ask.

Ask next time, you will be surprised.

OzExorcist · Nov 5, 2009

StormRaven said:
Live - no you can not see a persons mucked cards, even if you ask. If you are in a hand and it goes to showdown it takes 2 cards shown to win the hand, but, if the other players folded their cards and conceded the pot then you don't have to show. If other players paid on the river then the winning hand has to show both cards. If the players were all in in a tournament then both or all the players have to show. If players are all in in a cash game and one player tosses their cards in, the other gets the pot and doesn't have to show.

This simply isn't true as long as the hand that's being mucked went to showdown.

They don't have to show their hand unless someone asks to see it and it's generally considered poor form to do so. But once someone else who was in the hand (ie: they were dealt live cards for the hand - it doesn't have to be the person who went to showdown with them) has asked to see them the cards have to be exposed. Again, it's considered poor form so it's rarely done, but it's in the rules.

Xavier · Nov 5, 2009

OzExorcist said:
They don't have to show their hand unless someone asks to see it and it's generally considered poor form to do so. But once someone else who was in the hand (ie: they were dealt live cards for the hand - it doesn't have to be the person who went to showdown with them) has asked to see them the cards have to be exposed. Again, it's considered poor form so it's rarely done, but it's in the rules.

At my local casino people always ask to see the cards if people muck them at showdown.
Why would it be poor form?
Surely its bad play to pass up this opportunity as you are missing out on valuable information on how an opponent played the hand.

jordanbillie · Nov 5, 2009

Because they are surrendering there hand to you and telling you to go ahead and take the pot, so then you make them show? It is considered poor form and the rule should not be abused.

Xavier · Nov 5, 2009

jordanbillie said:
Because they are surrendering there hand to you and telling you to go ahead and take the pot, so then you make them show? It is considered poor form and the rule should not be abused.

I don't think it is commonly viewed that way in the UK.

jordanbillie · Nov 5, 2009

Xavier said:
I don't think it is commonly viewed that way in the UK.

It may vary, but I thought it was considered poor etiquette regardless of where you are playing.

Placid Carcass · Nov 5, 2009

I think a player has every right to play their hand in any fashion and no matter what it is not poor etiquette..... The reason I say this is sometimes when I am playing a good opponent and the pot is low I'l raise small increments even if I know I will lose , just to change the opponents perception of how I play, thus in some situations giving me and advantage that is worth the 500$ lost chips. Sometimes I feel mucking the hand will aid me in that the opponant will have to really on how I was bettting vs the cards on table to get a feel for me.

Other times I feel showing will have a stronger effect....

If we are to say all losers should show on a showdown if they've called elimates a very good stategy if use right....

OzExorcist · Nov 6, 2009

Xavier said:
I don't think it is commonly viewed that way in the UK.

Never played in the UK so I wouldn't know - it's definitely considered poor form here and in the US though. I've even seen televised footage of American and Australian players getting their backs up when the rule is invoked.

Actually from memory it was Andy Black who asked to see the mucked hand in that instance so maybe you're onto something with UK players not thinking it's such a big deal.

jacksprat · Nov 6, 2009

OzExorcist said:
Never played in the UK so I wouldn't know - it's definitely considered poor form here and in the US though. I've even seen televised footage of American and Australian players getting their backs up when the rule is invoked.

Actually from memory it was Andy Black who asked to see the mucked hand in that instance so maybe you're onto something with UK players not thinking it's such a big deal.

I used to play in a regular Sunday afternoon one table pub game, £5 buy in, one extra buy in, plus add on allowed, and it was considered a polite courtesy playing for such low stakes to show your hole cards at the showdown.

We were basically a social gathering enjoying a few pints and a game of cards together.

Two of the guys left the game permanently, and two more came in. At the first showdown, one of the new guys insisted he didn’t have to show his hole cards, and it was impolite of us to have asked. We argued the point that because he had often been in the pub and watched the games, he has an advantage over all of us, and as a consequence we should carry on the same.

The following week, the two new guys continued to make their point, “Well we have been playing at a Casino every Saturday for weeks now, and we don’t have to show our loosing hole cards”.

When the pub landlord stuck up for them, probably his best two customers! We all decided enough was enough and started our own home games.

We played for fun, and some of the best banter involved seeing the hole cards from an attempted bluff at the showdown!

Xavier · Nov 6, 2009

jordanbillie said:
It may vary, but I thought it was considered poor etiquette regardless of where you are playing.

I've played quite a lot in the casino and I've never come across that viewpoint before reading this thread.
I thought it was the opposite, that if you muck your cards on showdown it was considered poor etiquette, especially if you have been called on a bluff.
Once in the casino I mucked my cards 2 or 3 times on showdown and this one guy got really pissed about it.

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