Online Pros?

unstoppable4 · Mar 17, 2008

1. Are there very many professional online poker players?

2. Of these pros how many of them make a GOOD living and are not just grinding it out hour by hour day by day to make the same amount as an average American?

3. Is it more likely that an online pro is a tournament player or a cash game player?

vanquish · Mar 17, 2008

unstoppable4 said:
1. Are there very many professional online poker players?

2. Of these pros how many of them make a GOOD living and are not just grinding it out hour by hour day by day to make the same amount as an average American?

3. Is it more likely that an online pro is a tournament player or a cash game player?

1. i suppose yes

2. absolutely

3. cash games

SAH89 · Mar 17, 2008

Sure, theres plenty, you can see them all the time. Right now I see Eddy Scharf playing. They make an okay living I guess, I know Gus Hansen's made like $1,000,000 online in 3 days.

zachvac · Mar 17, 2008

Read about Taylor Caby, he was playing extremely high limit HU. Brian Townsend aka sbrugby also did quite well for himself, heard he was making ~$200k/month. I think he did cash games. But there have been/probably still are tournament players who make more than enough to make ends meet as well.

flint · Mar 17, 2008

zachvac said:
Brian Townsend aka sbrugby also did quite well for himself, heard he was making ~$200k/month. I think he did cash games.

Are you forgetting Patrik Antonious the superstar from my little humble contry of Finland who has made an estimated of 10-15 million playing online in the last few years? We got other good pros too like Lars Luzak and Ziigmund both of which have made a nice amount of money in the holdem and omaha tables.

vanquish · Mar 17, 2008

flint said:
Are you forgetting Patrik Antonious the superstar from my little humble contry of Finland who has made an estimated of 10-15 million playing online in the last few years? We got other good pros too like Lars Luzak and Ziigmund both of which have made a nice amount of money in the holdem and omaha tables.

lol antonius is the best player ever ever ever

infinate8 · Mar 17, 2008

1:ALOT...just check the OPR rankings for any site and you'll find plenty people there hitting 100k profit each year,ad these r just your average Joe Soaps,the pros even more.

2:Have no clue but the majority just play high stake tournies where the $ are.

3:Tournaments.

Monoxide · Mar 17, 2008

vanquish said:
lol antonius is the best player ever ever ever

qft

vanquish · Mar 17, 2008

infinate8 said:
3:Tournaments.

wrong

NoWuckingFurries · Mar 17, 2008

They said on Rounder's Radio that only the wealthy few can afford to be pros that purely play tournies, due to the high variance... most earn their bread and butter income in cash games... but I don't necessarily believe everything I hear on Rounder's Radio...

OzExorcist · Mar 17, 2008

Some might make their money from SnGs, or might cash big in the occasional tournament, but the bread and butter games for most of them will be ring games.

Just take a look at the lobby in any major poker site. Sure, they offer SnGs with $1000 buy-ins, but how often do these games actually fill up and get played? Usually they're all sitting empty.

Flick over to the ring games list, however, and you'll see games happening at all sorts of stakes, all the time.

zachvac · Mar 18, 2008

OzExorcist said:
Some might make their money from SnGs, or might cash big in the occasional tournament, but the bread and butter games for most of them will be ring games.

Just take a look at the lobby in any major poker site. Sure, they offer SnGs with $1000 buy-ins, but how often do these games actually fill up and get played? Usually they're all sitting empty.

Flick over to the ring games list, however, and you'll see games happening at all sorts of stakes, all the time.

Really? Right now there is one Stars game for $5/$10, and all the other tables are lower. So 9 people playing 1000nl, and everyone else playing lower. Meanwhile tournament-wise, there's an $1100+rake sng and a HU game for about that (forget exactly, but I think they were both $1100-something). And then there are the weekly big tournaments, saw a 4-man $10k HU tourney the other day, top 2 actually ended up chopping for $20k each. There's the weekly winner take all $5k entry fee tourney which got 20 a few weeks ago, not sure what's normal.

I think it's possible to make a living at either one, I was under the impression that at least live most of the pros did tournaments. Online I guess cash games are possibly more profitable because of multi-tabling. Tough to do that with tourneys where there are a whole host of conditions that are constantly changing and players have to make reads based on this (how desperate are others getting?) along with individual changes they have to make (short-stacked, what's the prize structure, average stack, how many to the money, etc.). Cash game using something like PT+PAHUD can get a lot of relevant stats that shouldn't change a ton because stack sizes and conditions are relatively constant.

unstoppable4 · Mar 18, 2008

NoWuckingFurries said:
They said on Rounder's Radio that only the wealthy few can afford to be pros that purely play tournies, due to the high variance... most earn their bread and butter income in cash games... but I don't necessarily believe everything I hear on Rounder's Radio...

How do you get Rounders Radio?

vanquish · Mar 18, 2008

zachvac said:
Really? Right now there is one Stars game for $5/$10, and all the other tables are lower. So 9 people playing 1000nl, and everyone else playing lower. Meanwhile tournament-wise, there's an $1100+rake sng and a HU game for about that (forget exactly, but I think they were both $1100-something). And then there are the weekly big tournaments, saw a 4-man $10k HU tourney the other day, top 2 actually ended up chopping for $20k each. There's the weekly winner take all $5k entry fee tourney which got 20 a few weeks ago, not sure what's normal.

I think it's possible to make a living at either one, I was under the impression that at least live most of the pros did tournaments. Online I guess cash games are possibly more profitable because of multi-tabling. Tough to do that with tourneys where there are a whole host of conditions that are constantly changing and players have to make reads based on this (how desperate are others getting?) along with individual changes they have to make (short-stacked, what's the prize structure, average stack, how many to the money, etc.). Cash game using something like Poker Tracker+PAHUD can get a lot of relevant stats that shouldn't change a ton because stack sizes and conditions are relatively constant.

most of the pros do cash games (people multitabling 600max+ are almost all pros) and dont necessarily play their sessions at the exact time when you were taking a look at pokerstars, while most of the casual players who have well paying jobs play the higher stakes tourneys + sngs because they (think) they have a chance at winning some money while having fun, rather than grinding cash where its the same thing over and over and minimal edges are exploited for profit.

also, consider this:
some MTT pros (that are legitimately vvvvv good at tournaments) can have years where they are down money due to the pure variance of tournaments despite having a few huge scores. cash game players are almost guaranteed a profit as long as they play +EV poker and log enough hands.

people making livings playing online poker (or more of them) _definitely_ make their living off cash games (though they do dabble in tournaments as well - but they are certainly cash game players before 'tournament pros')

Paranormal · Mar 18, 2008

dude zach .. you hurt my head when you go off on all the technical stuff.. lol but i am impressed that you studie poker and its economics so well. always have something to learn i guess

OzExorcist · Mar 18, 2008

zachvac said:
I think it's possible to make a living at either one, I was under the impression that at least live most of the pros did tournaments. Online I guess cash games are possibly more profitable because of multi-tabling. Tough to do that with tourneys where there are a whole host of conditions that are constantly changing and players have to make reads based on this (how desperate are others getting?) along with individual changes they have to make (short-stacked, what's the prize structure, average stack, how many to the money, etc.). Cash game using something like Poker Tracker+PAHUD can get a lot of relevant stats that shouldn't change a ton because stack sizes and conditions are relatively constant.

Maybe Stars is different (though I'd be surprised), but I know it's always the case on Full Tilt - there's always quite a few $25-$50+ ring games going on, but most of the high stakes SnGs are empty.

Sure, people come out of the woodwork for things like the FTOPS or the Sunday Million tournaments, but it was my impression most of them worked cash games because that's where the more regular action is - same as live players.

I think you'll find the other reason they don't tend to play cash games live is because, unless they live in Vegas, they probably won't be able to find a game with high enough limits to be bothered with compared to the online games they can play.

The biggest live cash game players in the world tend to move to Vegas because that's where the action is. Online players may not want to do the same thing, so instead if they're going to play live they'll make a trip for a big live tournament, where they know there's going to be action (and likely some decent side games too).

Paranormal · Mar 18, 2008

well i just logged in a .50/1 cash and im up 20 bucks in less then a hour so i guess 20 bucks a hour could be pretty sick.. . and i havnt even had a show down yet

Effexor · Mar 18, 2008

zachvac said:
Really? Right now there is one Stars game for $5/$10, and all the other tables are lower. .

You have your hide full tables checked I believe.

I see 4 tables of 25/50 NL,
and 6 of 10/20 NL
8 tables of 5/10

on Stars right now.

zachvac · Mar 18, 2008

Effexor said:
You have your hide full tables checked I believe.

I see 4 tables of 25/50 NL,
and 6 of 10/20 NL
8 tables of 5/10

on Stars right now.

I did, but I realized I had the filter on only showing fast tables. My mistake. Maybe I should play at one of the $25/$50 tables. I now have enough money online to buy-in for that

. Blind steal picking up $75 is simply amazing

vanquish · Mar 18, 2008

zachvac said:
I did, but I realized I had the filter on only showing fast tables. My mistake. Maybe I should play at one of the $25/$50 tables. I now have enough money online to buy-in for that . Blind steal picking up $75 is simply amazing

[ ] thinly veiled
[x] brag

lol

zachvac · Mar 18, 2008

vanquish said:
[ ] thinly veiled
[x] brag

lol

lol, well only a little under $99k to go before I'm properly rolled for it, then you can bet I'll be bragging

Munchrs · Mar 18, 2008

There are pros who play as low as 0.50/1.00 and earn over $100/hour.

google is your friend, also 2+2 forums have a truck load of posters who play professionally in the mid stakes forums.

Many make excellent money. The top pros make around 200k a month i think and some make ridiculous sums.

benevg · Mar 18, 2008

zachvac said:
Blind steal picking up $75 is simply amazing

so - buy in, win one hand in any way possible, steal blinds once, you have made more than enough for one day, considering. this was a free strategy tip by the undeniable genius that is me. enjoy!

disclaimer: any and all who decide to actually do that, i will wish you good luck, but i wouldn't take any of the blame when it doesn't work. :deal:

greener_lax · Mar 19, 2008

Paranormal said:
dude zach .. you hurt my head when you go off on all the technical stuff.. lol but i am impressed that you studie poker and its economics so well. always have something to learn i guess

he looks like the kind of guy who would be into the mathmatical and technical aspects...

Munchrs · Mar 19, 2008

zachvac said:
lol, well only a little under $99k to go before I'm properly rolled for it, then you can bet I'll be bragging

You probably need like $300k+ to be properly rolled because of all the other pros so there would be bigger downswings

.

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