Poker pro's and pot odds

dmorris68 · Sep 5, 2010

madtom1337 said:
@dmorris - QTip has also just released a book called "Poker Math that Matters" if you want to plug more of his material for him? How much is he paying you?

Yeah I read his initial announcement, and looked into the book. I may get it just for the quizzes to confirm what I *think* I know, and to have an easy reference to look back at.

And he's not paying me anything... yet.

We'll see after I've had a material impact on his sales and on DTB memberships though.

Much of the math behind poker I've figured out by now. Whether I always make the effort to apply it correctly is another question, but I least I'm familiar with most of the concepts. However I struggle with articulating it to others, and sometimes I do glaze over when getting deep into subjects like equity vs range, G-Bucks, etc. QTip has a very "Mr. Rogers" like quality in presenting information in a soft spoken, easy to understand fashion. Lesson 1 makes me feel like I'm watching a Sesame Street episode, lol, but I can imagine that's what many folks need to get over the hurdle of "poker math."

While probably 70% of this math series I have down cold, I'm looking for any tips that will make things easier, as I'm sure I'm probably doing some calculations the hard way (I tend to brute-force my way through some calculations, which takes too long to be practical). I'm hoping I'll get something out of the more advanced lessons in this series. And since I do have an obsession with books, I'll probably wind up with his too.

Poker Orifice · Sep 6, 2010

dj11 said:
I've been convinced for years that the main importance of poker books and articles is to get a player to a responsible understanding of the game. The basics and advanced concepts are so widely understood these days that it takes something else to excel. And that something else will not be math based to the 4th digit, or the 3rd, or the 2nd.

Most of us muck 72o most of the time, Why? Well, most us understand the cardinal ranking of cards, and have some probably very inadequate understanding of combo's and odds and 'feel' that the opportunity for 72o to improve is too remote to proceed.

Even most beginners who understand nothing can grasp that. There is math behind that but how many of us have spent any amount of time calculating the net effects of aggressively playing 72o. Truth probably is that aggressively playing 72o is the only way of playing 72o just because it is so easy to muck in the face of resistance. But that gets to be an advanced poker topic about reads, bluffs and domination, when maybe all it really is is insanity and juevos grande'.

I'd have to say that ALOT of players 'fail' miserably in the math dept. (ie. in late level MTT play, there are a ton of scenarios that one can run thru and you'll see many players making big mistakes.... math-based mistakes. I'm mostly referring to stack sizes/resteals, 3 & 4-betting, & what we'll need to call a resteal with (based on stack sizes). TONS of scenarios that one can run thru & play around with on Pokerstove & is far from being a 'given' for the majority of online MTT players (esp. in the lower limits).
{Winning Poker Tournaments - One Hand At A Time, Vol.2, gets into a fair bit of this discussion... as it's a huge leak in many players games}

Madness_does · Sep 6, 2010

good post

When dealing with odds I would say, only go by live play.

You cannot take a pro player and ask odds for online poker, you would want to ask them odds on live poker, any pro that tells you odds for an online game is either on drugs or they are no pro at all, LOL or owns the poker site.

its very fun to talk to a real pro that does it for a living, I have had that chance, no big names that you see on tv, but a guy that does it for a living, sure as hell makes more money than I ever have, even the semi pros I have talk to all say the same thing, they dont play online poker " for big money that is"":, I cant blame them, my bro is semi pro and very good, I told him which is no BS I played 20 games of sngs and got beat 7 times by 4 of a kind when I went all in, hey I had a good hand too, but the funny part which is not so funny is he laughed, in 40 years he has hit 4 of kind 1 time in live play, he has hit a royal, but for a pro that grinds or is staked, they know dam well there bread and butter is, its in live games.

Here is some odds for yah.

full tilt: AA pre flop beat 21 times in a row. Live play 1 time.
KK: beat so many times online, I cant remember, live play not yet. I did play a live game 4 weeks ago and saw AA get beat by KK, very rare but it happens.

after my AA 21 times row happened, I said ok maybe my bad luck is over, nope went for another 11 AA cracked in a row.

Hell I lost 20 bucks last night on full tilt, full house against full house. he had K4 full I had K3 full. that bull shiiit just does not happen in live play and when it does it is a rare time.

I have always said that if brick and mortar casinos were to produced the bull shiiit action odds that online rooms do, you would see on the nightly news dealers or casino owners getting shot to death, at point blank range. Cause anyone that does does simple math would know something is dam wrong with this picture. If you really want to know the odd of online poker, I would go down and grab a cup of coffee, hit up all the old ladies at the bingo parlor and they can get you right on track, cause that were your odds would come in to play, hell you never know you might get lucky, cheers from madness.

Poker Orifice · Sep 7, 2010

Madness_does said:
When dealing with odds I would say, only go by live play.

You cannot take a pro player and ask odds for online poker, you would want to ask them odds on live poker, any pro that tells you odds for an online game is either on drugs or they are no pro at all, LOL or owns the poker site.

its very fun to talk to a real pro that does it for a living, I have had that chance, no big names that you see on tv, but a guy that does it for a living, sure as hell makes more money than I ever have, even the semi pros I have talk to all say the same thing, they dont play online poker " for big money that is"":, I cant blame them, my bro is semi pro and very good, I told him which is no BS I played 20 games of sngs and got beat 7 times by 4 of a kind when I went all in, hey I had a good hand too, but the funny part which is not so funny is he laughed, in 40 years he has hit 4 of kind 1 time in live play, he has hit a royal, but for a pro that grinds or is staked, they know dam well there bread and butter is, its in live games.

Here is some odds for yah.

full tilt: AA pre flop beat 21 times in a row. Live play 1 time.
KK: beat so many times online, I cant remember, live play not yet. I did play a live game 4 weeks ago and saw AA get beat by KK, very rare but it happens.

after my AA 21 times row happened, I said ok maybe my bad luck is over, nope went for another 11 AA cracked in a row.

Hell I lost 20 bucks last night on full tilt, full house against full house. he had K4 full I had K3 full. that bull shiiit just does not happen in live play and when it does it is a rare time.

I have always said that if brick and mortar casinos were to produced the bull shiiit action odds that online rooms do, you would see on the nightly news dealers or casino owners getting shot to death, at point blank range. Cause anyone that does does simple math would know something is dam wrong with this picture. If you really want to know the odd of online poker, I would go down and grab a cup of coffee, hit up all the old ladies at the bingo parlor and they can get you right on track, cause that were your odds would come in to play, hell you never know you might get lucky, cheers from madness.

I'm entitled to my opinion right? (as you are your's) but this ^ is a HUGE derail in my opinion (and freak'n ridiculous).. << this is sayin' it nicely.
Please stick to posting this 'crap' in the 'rigtard thread' where it belongs.

8Michael3 · Sep 7, 2010

Madness_does said:
When dealing with odds I would say, only go by live play.

You cannot take a pro player and ask odds for online poker, you would want to ask them odds on live poker, any pro that tells you odds for an online game is either on drugs or they are no pro at all, LOL or owns the poker site.

its very fun to talk to a real pro that does it for a living, I have had that chance, no big names that you see on tv, but a guy that does it for a living, sure as hell makes more money than I ever have, even the semi pros I have talk to all say the same thing, they dont play online poker " for big money that is"":, I cant blame them, my bro is semi pro and very good, I told him which is no BS I played 20 games of sngs and got beat 7 times by 4 of a kind when I went all in, hey I had a good hand too, but the funny part which is not so funny is he laughed, in 40 years he has hit 4 of kind 1 time in live play, he has hit a royal, but for a pro that grinds or is staked, they know dam well there bread and butter is, its in live games.

Here is some odds for yah.

full tilt: AA pre flop beat 21 times in a row. Live play 1 time.
KK: beat so many times online, I cant remember, live play not yet. I did play a live game 4 weeks ago and saw AA get beat by KK, very rare but it happens.

after my AA 21 times row happened, I said ok maybe my bad luck is over, nope went for another 11 AA cracked in a row.

Hell I lost 20 bucks last night on full tilt, full house against full house. he had K4 full I had K3 full. that bull shiiit just does not happen in live play and when it does it is a rare time.

I have always said that if brick and mortar casinos were to produced the bull shiiit action odds that online rooms do, you would see on the nightly news dealers or casino owners getting shot to death, at point blank range. Cause anyone that does does simple math would know something is dam wrong with this picture. If you really want to know the odd of online poker, I would go down and grab a cup of coffee, hit up all the old ladies at the bingo parlor and they can get you right on track, cause that were your odds would come in to play, hell you never know you might get lucky, cheers from madness.

LOL thats all I can say. LOL on the floor giggling at the misunderstanding of odds. L out F L

RamdeeBen · Sep 7, 2010

Madness_does said:
When dealing with odds I would say, only go by live play.

You cannot take a pro player and ask odds for online poker, you would want to ask them odds on live poker, any pro that tells you odds for an online game is either on drugs or they are no pro at all, LOL or owns the poker site.

its very fun to talk to a real pro that does it for a living, I have had that chance, no big names that you see on tv, but a guy that does it for a living, sure as hell makes more money than I ever have, even the semi pros I have talk to all say the same thing, they dont play online poker " for big money that is"":, I cant blame them, my bro is semi pro and very good, I told him which is no BS I played 20 games of sngs and got beat 7 times by 4 of a kind when I went all in, hey I had a good hand too, but the funny part which is not so funny is he laughed, in 40 years he has hit 4 of kind 1 time in live play, he has hit a royal, but for a pro that grinds or is staked, they know dam well there bread and butter is, its in live games.

Here is some odds for yah.

full tilt: AA pre flop beat 21 times in a row. Live play 1 time.
KK: beat so many times online, I cant remember, live play not yet. I did play a live game 4 weeks ago and saw AA get beat by KK, very rare but it happens.

after my AA 21 times row happened, I said ok maybe my bad luck is over, nope went for another 11 AA cracked in a row.

Hell I lost 20 bucks last night on full tilt, full house against full house. he had K4 full I had K3 full. that bull shiiit just does not happen in live play and when it does it is a rare time.

I have always said that if brick and mortar casinos were to produced the bull shiiit action odds that online rooms do, you would see on the nightly news dealers or casino owners getting shot to death, at point blank range. Cause anyone that does does simple math would know something is dam wrong with this picture. If you really want to know the odd of online poker, I would go down and grab a cup of coffee, hit up all the old ladies at the bingo parlor and they can get you right on track, cause that were your odds would come in to play, hell you never know you might get lucky, cheers from madness.

Wow.

I must say that is quite unbelievable.

So you have had pocket aces 32times and you seriously lost 32times in a ROW? I find that truly hard to believe, i would love to see these hand histories. Then again, you aren't saying how many people was involved in the hand. If there are more than 1 or 2 then it's clear that you are playing the aces really really badly. Besides, if i had 32 pocket aces beat in a row, i really would think about quitting the game myself as this sort of luck is just so wow, how on earth can you ever win a pot if you lose with aces 32 times in a row?

ps: I'd of never played King 3 to start with..

dmorris68 · Sep 7, 2010

Madness_does said:
...random nonsense...

Hard to believe this is from a poster with 286 posts since Feb 2007. I can only imagine what the previous 285 were like. Probably all in the rigtard thread.

Or is this a level? If so, wp sir... wp.

Oil_Fan · Sep 7, 2010

You guys are killing me here. Well other than the last few posts. Even I do better with pocket aces. Now I have more videos to watch and at least one more book to read!!!

All I've got to say is that I thought I had a clue about poker but daammmmnnn...I still have way more to learn!!

madtom1337 · Sep 7, 2010

Everyone thinks they've got a clue about poker. That's the beauty of it.

Insta-edit: And that's what makes it so, so profitable once you do have a clue. It's hard getting those clues though

QTipDTB · Sep 23, 2010

Thanks for the shout out David and Tom

As others have said, it's very rare that I'm doing any intense math at the table. The most I ever do is figuring out how much I need for implied odds and figuring out the fold equity I need for a semi-bluff. Those spots only come up maybe once or twice in 100 hands on average. The rest in an ingrained intuition from untold hours working away from the table analyzing situations and hands.

My book Poker Math That Matters, some mentioned here shows shortcuts for at the table poker and then shows players how to analyzed different situations away from the table by analyzing their assumptions about a player's range and then finding the best play.

Understanding the math involved in analyzing a poker hand is the single most important factor in learning to play good poker. All the hand-reading in the world will do you no good if you don't know what to do with the information you gain.

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Poker pro's and pot odds

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