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Message: [QUOTE="MediaBLITZ, post: 1976310, member: 77190"] [B][I] Ah, okay many factors I see, I always thought it was just the pot odds percentage versus the percentage of outs and if your outs are higher you call or raise. [/I][/B] That is how it works to determine your action, but as was stated you cannot just assume that any old out that improves your hand will win you the pot. For example, you hitting the T on the turn does you no good at all if the other guy has JJ. It helps your hand (might get another T on the river - yeah right) but it does not make it a winner - not even a probable winner. A more practical use of counting outs is you have KT and the flop is :qh::js: :4d: . You have 8 outs to a big straight (an A or 9) that, if you hit one of those outs, probably makes you dominate to win the hand. [B][I]why do I still multiply by only 2 on turn and on the river? Why does the rule of 4 and 2 only include when you are guarantee to see both the turn and the river cards? [/I][/B] If you are playing correctly, you are playing street by street and reassessing your position in the hand along the way (each street gets one rule of two). If there is still the possibility you will fold after the turn then using the rule of four is not relevant. The rule of four comes into play if your post flop play means there is a guarantee of a show down - either he went all in and you called or you go all in. Then you know you will be seeing both streets (turn and river) and can effectively use the rule of four. Until then using it would be very misleading to the determination of your action. make sense? Using the above hand lets say another 4 comes out on the turn and the other shoves. After you say Oh shit to yourself you can see you have 8 outs with only one street to go. 2x8=16% 16% versus a shove - and lets say you somehow even have the pot odds to call (like 5 to 1). Yes, the math is there but what is also there is the possibility that the other player turned a full house (remember that JJ we talked about?) So even if you hit your outs on the river you might end up regretting going by pot odds alone. Once again it comes down to your read. [/QUOTE]

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