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Message: [QUOTE="Jack Daniels, post: 1062966, member: 1954"] QFT This mentality, imo, comes not from playing the game and thinking you understand it, but instead it comes from playing other games and incorrectly believing that the numbers and rules you're used to there apply here. People that play hold'em know that starting with the AA is the best hand PF all the time, no question. And they know that AA will win like 85% of the time against a random hand. That concept is totally wrong in razz. A23 is not always the best starting hand. Razz starting hand strength is relative directly to the other board cards dealt and indirectly to your door card. So let's [U]ignore the other board cards for now[/U] and say you have A23 and your opponent has 874. Well if we agree that we have the best starting hand that's great, but we are not 85% to win like with aces. If our opponent is showing [xx]9, then we are still only like 74% (about 3 to 1 favorite). But that's for random down cards. Let's be realistic and say all his cards are 9 or lower and non-paired...now we're like 1.75 to 1 favorite, and we that's with the agreed upon "best starting hand". Once you add in board/dead cards, yes, the % can change quickly (especially if you hit bad and they hit good). So the skills in razz are more finesse (for lack of a better word) when it comes to reading the board and keeping track of dead cards (since that info can disappear in the middle of a hand but is crucial to your play). It isn't simply about, "ug, me have AA, shove PF". In simplest terms, we're talking about somewhat different skill sets in use for similar application. Obviously there is more to it than that, but some blanket statement about a game being like bingo when you don't know the math behind that game is sort of silly imo. [/QUOTE]

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