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Message: [QUOTE="SGspecial, post: 1079017, member: 19638"] I don't think anyone is saying that holding a "made" hand guarantees you the pot, just that it guarantees a certain minimum showdown value. Even 22 in HE is a made hand (tho a pretty weak one) that does not need to improve vs. a hand like AK, so long as the AK doesn't improve either. Of course, starting with A23 in razz will always give you a big edge over trash like AKT just like starting with AA in HE gives you a big edge over 25o, but a lot of people are uncomfortable betting or raising without a made hand. If they want to be a big winner in razz tho, they need to get over it imo. [/QUOTE]