What's YOUR Opinion?

limit

You may have more chasers in a limit game,and alot of donkeys just betting with crap cards running(or trying) everyone out.Theres good n bad with both,so choose yr game.I prefer limit to build with myself,but i play small stakes in ring games.Im not ready to move up just yet.I like earning a hundred or so and withdrawing it.It helps havin xtra money thru the month.Everyone is different.It really depends on your goals and bankrolling too.

i like how you threw in doyles quote, i actually heard him say that on national TV.
now about your questions it's all preference, and everyone is going to defend thier favorite game, regardless of strategy or whatever, that's just how it is. and some are better at NL then L.
i feel in NL you have more control, it's easier to bluff, you can scare your opponent easier by firering the amo. and it's a litte quiker.
your right about limit, more controled subtle moves. and you better know what your doing. :joyman:

Being unable to defend your hand in Limit is a draw-back. Once someone calls pre-flop and gets a piece of the flop, they are inevitably getting the pot odds to call at least one small bet to see the Turn card. However, many of these calling stations don't even know what pot odds are, let alone why they are important. And, as I noted in my previous response, they will suck out on you and you must learn to deal with it.

For example, I played some $2/$4 Limit yesterday afternoon. I previously said that pre-flop raises were generally a waste of money. The one exception is if you are first in the pot. I was UTG with pocket K's, so I raised to $4, because I knew what was likely to happen..some donkey with and Ace rag was going to call and hit an Ace on the flop. Sure enough, the old timer on the button called me with A 7 off-suit and hit his A on the flop to win the hand. Obviously, he made a horrible call. I could have had anything from AJ suited on up, so he could have been easily dominated. But, he probably doesn't even know what being dominated is. He was a net looser during the session, so in the long run his horrible calls caught up with him. Of course, I was not always the beneficiary of his bad play. And, that's the FRUSTRATING part!!!

The hard truth of the matter is that most people have no idea how to play tough, winning limit!

"Raising preflop is a waste of time" is a ridiculous statement, and just proves that players don't do much homework, as they try to learn the game. Look up the word EXPECTATION!

"Can't protect my hand" is another line I love. Protecting your hand is limit is 100% possible... just got to know how. Yep, another important, subtle strategy that many players have no idea how to put into limit play.

"There's very little talent in limit" is just laughable, but proves the point that new players rarely put in the study time (which is why BROKE is a word often used when they describe their poker life).

Something that wasn't mentioned much, if at all, is the MENTAL TOUGHNESS needed to be a long term limit winner. It's a grind, which is why I love it soo much (knowing my opponents hate it). I love the emotional control needed in limit.

Dayne G.: I agree with your statements when it comes to higher level Limit games...maybe beginning at $4/$8 Limit and going all the way up. Perhaps I should have clarified my statements more precisely.

It's been my experience that in $2/$4 and $3/$6 Limit games, there are too many players, playing too many hands, and going to far with them. Usually 7-9 players are eeing the flop, playing all kinds of rags, and a raise won't drive them out. When that many people stick around, somebody inevitably hits something to beat big pocket pairs that would usually hold up in other Hold'em games with only 2-3 players seeing the flop...thus, my statement that pre-flop raises with big pocket pairs is often a waste of money. Yes, I know about Expectation and with 7-9 people seeing the flop, I expect big pocket pairs in low dollar Limit games to hold up slightly less than 30% of the time. Over the long run, raising pre-flop may pay-off, if you can learn to deal with the frustration of suck out and people beating you with rags in the short-run. I will admit that my frustration level is not as high as it should be under these circumstances.

In my experience, post-flop is entirely another story. Betting, raising, and reraising is very necessary to protect your hand. Again, that doesn't prevent someone from from making statistically bad calls and hitting their gut-shot on the River in the face of a bet and raise. But, in low dollar Limit games, poor players attempt to do it a lot and sometimes succeed. But, post-slop, it's easier to drive them out with a raise or make them pay very dearly to hit their draw. Against these calling stations, you can make lots of extra bets post-flop, because a check-raise and pot odds are not in their vocabulary.

In short, I think one must play differently at low dollar Limit games vs higher dollar Limit games and within low dollar Limit games, pre and post flop play. While statistically the cards are the same, the players are not, so I vary my play accordingly.

limit vs nol limit

limit play for the beginner is best to start a ongoing bankroll. no limit play should be considered dangerous for the beginner my advise stick to limit until you have a considerable bankroll to work with

The art of limit... I definately need to read more into it, however I think low limit play is like a free roll and I honestly do ot want to put the money into a high limit game untill I feel confident enough with a strategy, to me it just seems like I always want to call almost anyhting cuz the whole table is in and I am getting odds to call... terrible I know, but I do not see how min raising after and preflop can protect ahand.. any good books you might suggest?

ncmtngirl79 said:

The art of limit... I definately need to read more into it, however I think low limit play is like a free roll and I honestly do ot want to put the money into a high limit game untill I feel confident enough with a strategy, to me it just seems like I always want to call almost anyhting cuz the whole table is in and I am getting odds to call... terrible I know, but I do not see how min raising after and preflop can protect ahand.. any good books you might suggest?

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The best book on Low stakes Limit Hold'em that I have found is Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth "Small Stakes Hold'em."

c9h13no3 said:

Limit hold'em is harder. You can't just get in 1-2 big pots and have that be your profit for the night. In limit, each decision is pretty much worth the same amount of money.

I get in more tough spots playing stud & limit hold'em than I do playing NL. Just in NL, its usually more important to get those few tough spots you're in right (since there's more $ riding on it).

They take different skills, and are very different games.

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This post is right on. In NL you can play way less hands and be in great position. Thats just not going to happen in limit games. Limit and 7 stud are much more skilled games in my opinion.

no limit is my favorite game but limit does have its draws like the being able to chase a hand down without having to go allin. hehe , but nolimit is the main game being played right now cant even find a good five card draw game anymore

Dayne G. said:

I know you guys are mostly NL players, so I'll risk getting slammed-

I always hear NL players talking about how that game is so much tougher than limit, and is way more of an art-form. Yes, I believe you must "throw away the math" sometimes, as the next decision could mean your entire stack, but...

LHE isn't only a simple "science," dominated by strict math decisions, as I hear so often. To be a truly successful limit player, very subtle concepts must be mastered. Since LHE isn't about snapping stacks, but instead, about winning every single bet possible, knowing when to push the tiniest edges are essential.

"I hate limit, because it's impossible to protect my hand," I hear over-and-over.

That just simply isn't true! Because you can't just move all-in, you must find more subtle ways to protect your hand... this is where the "art" comes in winning limit play!

What do you think? Agree/Disagree? Opinions?

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i think that the problem with this line is that the people who i have heard this most from are the low level limit players. from my experience if you are playing 2/4 limit there is NO WAY to protect your hand. the most you can lose in 2/4 is 44 dollars [i think (caps:8 pre flop, 12 flop,turn,and river)], in my experience at low level limit, you can push people off a drawing hand especially if you are strong.

example, i had QQ raised preflop to 4 from the sb
had 3 callers
flop is 2 6 9 i check hoping someone will bet so i can raise, my check is followed by a check, then a bet, a call, then my re-raise
the person directly after me folds, and i get 2 callers
turn is a 2,
i checked again.....next guy bets 4, next person calls, i raise to 8, get a call and a fold
river is.............the A................i bet now rather than check, to try to rep an ace. i get raised and decide to call.

got beat by A3os.......now if this was no limit i would have been able to push an experienced player off the hand.

this all changes when you get in to the higher limits, but in lower limit games there is NO WAY to guard your hand

the bad thing whit limit is you cant realy bluff on there cause you only make a standard bet
and i play mostly verry tight and sometimes try to steal some blinds
but thats realy impossible for me in limit
ime realy bad at it
cause i cant go all in whit a monster hand and i know i have the nuts
thats just my 2 cents

i think limit is more like playing chess. U need to anticipate what your opponent is going to do in order to win the extra bet.I personally love playing HORSE.

I personnally think limit hold'em is harder then not limit. Firstly, its harder to get someone to fold, you get lots of people chasing because its small bets. Secondly, because of all the chasers, your great hand will often lose to a Donkey. You just have to be more patient.

corrado363 said:

i think that the problem with this line is that the people who i have heard this most from are the low level limit players. from my experience if you are playing 2/4 limit there is NO WAY to protect your hand. the most you can lose in 2/4 is 44 dollars [i think (caps:8 pre flop, 12 flop,turn,and river)], in my experience at low level limit, you can push people off a drawing hand especially if you are strong.

example, i had QQ raised preflop to 4 from the sb
had 3 callers
flop is 2 6 9 i check hoping someone will bet so i can raise, my check is followed by a check, then a bet, a call, then my re-raise
the person directly after me folds, and i get 2 callers
turn is a 2,
i checked again.....next guy bets 4, next person calls, i raise to 8, get a call and a fold
river is.............the A................i bet now rather than check, to try to rep an ace. i get raised and decide to call.

got beat by A3os.......now if this was no limit i would have been able to push an experienced player off the hand.

this all changes when you get in to the higher limits, but in lower limit games there is NO WAY to guard your hand

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"Protecting" doesn't always have to mean, MAKE THEM FOLD... it very often means make them pay the wrong price.

If they call when they shouldn't, YOU WIN (no matter the result of the hand). This concept can't be emphasized enough!!!!!!!!! If you raise turn, and he calls with nada, hoping to hit miracle... you win, PERIOD. This is poker, this is what separates long term winners from the losers.

Without this understanding, your poker career will be shorter than you wish.